View source for Talk:Travelling hashman achievement

I suggest to move this to [[Traveling hashman achievement]]. And create a redirect from [[Travelling hashman achievement]], or the other way around. -- [[User:relet|relet]]

: done -- [[User:Xore|Xore]] 21:51, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't know. Reaching seven hash points seems pretty massive to me. It's an interesting feat, but I wouldn't create the achievement before anyone actually attempted it.  -- [[User:relet|relet]] 21:44, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

: It's something truly notable to achieve. I doubt anyone in vancouver will be able to pull it off, due to severe geographical constraints, but I think some ambitious germans or even atlantans could pull it off... -- [[User:Xore|Xore]] 21:51, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

My first few thoughts:
*Hardly achievable, as the chance that all seven points are reachable is almost zero in most graticules.
*Contradicts the spirit of going on the actual day, as it means to skip six possible days of valid coordinates just to have a small chance at the end of the week, which then still may turn out being void. Each expedition skipped for that is a loss to true geohashing.
*Only possible by burning a lot of fuel on a car. Simply impossible with any other kind of transport.
=> '''Oppose'''. --[[User:Ekorren|Ekorren]] 21:57, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

::It's cute, through the reference to the problem, but I '''oppose''' creating an extremely difficult retrohash achievement just to be cute. I haven't seen anyone suffering because it's too easy to get to their Saturday geohash point and so they need another six random locations to go to. Is the person allowed to choose any week in the past? If it's to be done on the Saturday for the past seven days then it's just a cheat for the Endurance geohashing achievement, taking all the spontaneity out of hoping that the next day will be attainable. Also if the Saturday is attainable, the person should be going to that at 4, and planning six other hashpoints makes it less likely that they will be at the meetup point at the right place. Can you do something with the travelling salesman problem that doesn't involve retros?  Maybe just the Friday, Saturday, Sunday points? But even then the person either has to go back to get the right ones on the right days or sacrifice actually getting hashpoints on their days. So I don't like that either. And the Atlanteans aren't going to do it unless they are going to deliberately not visit any point for a week! I don't see that this encourages more meetings, more interesting adventures or more geohashing by people who wouldn't otherwise go.  -[[User:Robyn|Robyn]] 22:10, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

::Also, relet, do Germans use American English spellings by definition? Did their sector of the occupation leave a stronger legacy than the British one?  -[[User:Robyn|Robyn]] 22:10, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

'''Oppose'''  Though the title made me chuckle, only one person ever has gotten 7 or more hashpoints in one day, and that was with some pretty optimal conditions.  It also emphasizes retrohashing over actual hashing.  While we do allow retrohashing, it has become our position that retro hashes aren't really in the spirit of things, and shouldn't really have specific achievements for them.  --[[User:Aperfectring|aperfectring]] 22:26, 15 June 2009 (UTC)



Unfortunately, you all seem to have completely missed the point here.   :S    The point of this achievement is -not- about retrohashing. It's about saying "I am a geek, and i have physically travelled the travelling salesman problem"... The same way we are all saying "I am a geek, and have physically travelled to a point generated by md5". The retrohashes merely provides a convenient set of points to base the problem off of. This is not meant to preclude people from geohashing during the week: that was merely an added difficulty factor. Would it be possible to get suggestions for improvements rather than straight opposition? I'd really like to see this idea fly. -- [[User:Xore|Xore]] 22:46, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Some points:
* Not all achievements are possible in all graticules, this (proposed) achievement is unlikely to be possible even in my home graticule, but i don't see that as a reason to stop people from trying. Also, some probability exists that the points may fall relatively close to each other, these weeks won't happen with any frequency, but they present opportunities.
* This would be only for the week that is currently ending, it wouldn't be for any arbitrary past week. (you wouldn't be able to go back and pick an easy one, although you can wait for an easy one if it comes up)
* I don't have a car, and geohashing on weekdays is more often than not completely unviable for me if I also wish to eat, sleep, and go to work. Maybe that makes me less dedicated a geohasher than some, but I see this as an opportunity to gain an epic geohashing day, not as a loss of the days that i wouldn't have been able to make anyway.
* One round trip visiting 7 hash points would burn less fuel than 7 separate expeditions-- This is inherent in the nature of the travelling salesman problem. I know some cyclists who would disagree that a car would be necessary for this.

== Suggested changes ==

in no particular order. Feel free to discuss, or add to the list.

* This achievement could be possible across multiple graticules. If the point for a day is unreachable in one graticule, perhaps it is reachable the next graticule over. [[Istanbul%2C_Turkey|Istanbul]] would be a good example of where one might traverse over 3 or even 4 graticules to achieve this.

* Perhaps not limit it to only on saturday, perhaps the whole weekend could be used, slipping over into sunday. Truly dedicated geohashers might be able to do it all in one day, however

* Try to arrange so that you reach the saturday point at 4pm so as not to miss the meetup. Or get everyone coming to the meetup to join you on the 
travelling geohash.

* Drop the requirement that you may not have visited the point previously. This seems to be the facet that is getting the most opposition. It was added for additional difficulty

* Instead of using the week's retrohashes, recalculate friday's opening with all the weekdates, which will generate new points for sunday through thursday. Thusly, no retrohashing (except friday. not much i can do about that)

== P = NP? ==
Silly boy. Everybody knows that P ≠ NP. --[[User:Starbird|starbird]] 22:49, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
:I think that was the point. -[[User:Robyn|Robyn]] 23:03, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
::Doesn't matter. If he'd offered bonus points for proving P ≠ NP, I'd have said, "Silly boy. Everybody knows that P = NP." --[[User:Starbird|starbird]] 02:35, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
:::There's no pleasing you. -[[User:Robyn|Robyn]] 05:36, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
:::I've always said that if P = NP, then N = 1.
::::Or P=0.

==Responses to Suggested Changes==
We (or at least I, and I am less geeky than most) do get the idea of it being a living example of the travelling salesman problem. That is its best point. Yes, it's theoretically possible to do this and still get to the 4 p.m. meetup, but it decreases, not increases the chance of doing so. If you dropped the "not visited previously" requirement then the argument "this encourages people not to hash for a week" is replaced with "geohashing is supposed to be about going to new places."  The Friday recalculation suggestion takes that away, but is needlessly complicated (admittedly defined as "I don't know how to do it") and seems worse than a retrohash to me, as it introduces ''more'' points that no one else is going to. Is there a way to do this using the participants' homes as points? Can't you just try to bike over every bridge in Vancouver once? -[[User:Robyn|Robyn]] 23:03, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

:I like the idea of the travelling salesman achievement. This is good. But the bad news is, that it stops being good at the idea. 
:I still do not really believe we can make a good achievement out of this even with a lot of modifications. All modifications will either make it ridiculously complicated (as the friday recalculation), keep and emphasize the retro part, or not really change much. I live in a graticule of very good accessibility, and I estimate that there are about two weeks per year where all hashpoints are ''somehow'' accessible. And ''somehow'' means: Reaching the first two of them on one day using bike and public transport is a nice trip, three or four will be challenging, then it's getting nasty. Seven is only possible under very good circumstances, and how often will they occur? Once in a lifetime?
:So, the only transport left to do this by is car, no matter how often people try to tell it isn't. Those bicyclists you talk of haven't even considered to try and calculate realistically on a true example. Again, I live in a very accessible graticule. Still, it is almost 200 km and a few mountains to get from the northern end to the southern end, one way, disregarding the hashes. It might be doable under theoretical circumstances, but I'll gladly wait for a couch potato globalhash instead, this sounds more interesting to wait for.

:*"Try to arrange so that you reach the saturday point at 4pm so as not to miss the meetup" - this is basically impossible if you are in severe hurry and also kills the idea of the Travelling Salesman, as it forces you to not use the shortest way.
:*Allowing several days to accomplish that totally kills the travelling salesman idea if you allow returning home on the way, and again works against visiting the actual days coordinates.
:*Allowing several graticules helps a bit, but not too much, as it replaces inaccessibility with longer distances and with that, time constraints.
:*Friday recalculation is unwieldy. Keep it small and simple. Friday already is a day of three coordinates, and you don't really want to check and plan out another six before making a decision what to do. Mind that friday's hash o'clock comes in the afternoon for europe, and deep into the night for Australia, making planning time too short. 
:--[[User:Ekorren|Ekorren]] 23:39, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

:No. You have to actually go to Königsberg. --[[User:Starbird|starbird]] 02:39, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
::You know, if I went to Königsberg, that ''would'' be on my must-do list. -[[User:Robyn|Robyn]] 02:51, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
:::Advice: if you want to cross each bridge exactly once, bring Sevylor. --[[User:Starbird|starbird]] 04:20, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
::::I thought of that! -[[User:Robyn|Robyn]] 04:45, 16 June 2009 (UTC)