Talk:Renaming Proposal

Comments on Renaming

• Support -> With people having voiced their concerns in the Discord server, I side with the motion to rename these achievements for a more welcoming and validating environment. Turning the MNIMB and MNB titles to ones with the word "humble" instead does not change the core intent behind the original meaning, and this change offers a more clean substitute for those sensitive to the offending word "bitch." For the Virgin Graticule achievement, the notion of "deflowering" a "virgin" graticule might give a meta-textual implication of non-consensual sexual activity to some users, whom would rather not have such imagery brought to mind. I am for selecting the name First Exploration for this achievement, as it is unambiguous and offers little or no colonial implications that titles such as Pioneer would have. Hopefully by making these changes, people can feel more comfortable visiting the wiki and not have to see anything which they feel is dismissive to their prior experiences.

JBest (talk) 16:37, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

• I strongly oppose renaming the Virgin Graticule Achievement for several reasons.
  • The name is not problematic. Graticules aren't persons. Calling them "virgin" is not shameful. (Being a person who is a virgin of course is not shameful either.) Once we realize that we aren't discussing a person but a graticule the name becomes unproblematic.
  • Deflowering does not imply non-consentual activities. Cambridge Dictionary seems to agree. If one were to believe that (human) virgins can only experience non-consentual sex that would say less about Geohashing and more about oneself's projections.
  • There is no good alternative. Many proposals are out there, but I haven't head one that is not
    • actually problematic unlike the current name, with communist or imperialist undertones.
    • a misnomer. "First Expedition"? An Expedition does not mean that the coordinates were reached, but the achievement is only awarded if the coordinates were reached. "Trailblazer"? The first person to reach coordinates in a particular graticule is not blazing anyone's trail. The second expedition is not easier because there has already been one.
    • clunky or simply bland.
  • A name change is bound to create confusion. The virgin graticule achievement is the third-most awarded achievement. Geohashing is not the most active community out there, we have people returning after month-, year- or decade-long breaks, spreading the news that one of the most central achievements has been renamed will literally be a never-ending task.
  • Doing a full rename requires work that I don't think anyone is up to do, certainly not me. We can't just move the page, change the ribbon template and call it a day. The achievement, since it is central to geohashing, is referred to on many other pages. Are we also going to change the thousands of existing expedition reports? I don't think that is actually possible, but if we don't, it will further confuse new Geohashers reading old reports.
    A while ago, a relatively new geohasher wanted to improve the aesthetics of ribbon templates, created Template:Ribbon2, migrated some of the ribbon templates, but not all of them, and then became inactive. Now we have two different ribbon types. Completing that migration would be trivial compared to remaning the Virgin Graticule Achievement, but so far, nobody has actually done it.
• I do not oppose renaming the MNB consolation prize/MNIMB achievement.
  • Since Mother Nature is not actually a person, I doubt it is going to be offended by being called a bitch. And calling oneself a bitch is just referring to oneself, not insulting anyone else. However, "bitch" actually is an insult and I understand if people don't want to call themselves that.
  • I mainly do not oppose since the proposed alternative names are similar enough to not cause as much confusion, and MNB/MNIMB are not as central to Geohashing as the Virgin Graticule Achievement is. Consequently, not doing a full rename would not be as catastrophic.
  • However, I do expect those voting in support to actually do the renaming work. Again, not just moving the pages, changing the ribbon templates, and calling it a day. An actual full rename.

--Fippe (talk) 21:58, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Note on personification: Despite a graticule (as you correctly pointed out) not being a person, by using this term we are describing it as if it is. It's less about shame and whether or not a graticule has feelings but rather that (as Arlo said at Talk:Virgin Graticule#name in 2020) the way we use language affects the way people view things. By using words that have connotations such as those of the word 'Virgin', we are causing issues with comfort and accessibility. If a significant amount of people feel uncomfortable about the current name and have thought about it in terms of sexuality for at least 15 years now, why bother standing so strongly with this position? I understand the points about logistical issues, but your stance that it doesn't cause issues simply because you say so despite many people repeatedly mentioning their discomfort feels odd to me. --KerrMcF (talk) 23:30, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Quick note on 'First Expedition': This is different to the suggested term of "First Exploration" which would work as it specifies actually exploring the geohash point, but I understand your point and agree on the aspect that the name may need a little work to avoid confusion. --KerrMcF (talk) 23:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

"First Exploration" was your suggestion - the page suggests "First Expedition". I'm not happy with "Exploration" either, because that just introduces another term predestined to confuse new Geohashers - our nomenclature is already complicated enough as is, I don't want to have to explain the difference between exploration and expedition for the next decades.

You cite a number of people disagreeing with the current name, but neglect all those who claim the achievement without any complaints. The reason that you won't find tons of people praising the current name is because people rarely see the point voicing their approval of the status quo.

While the root of the metaphor is sexual, I have yet to see any reason why that is a bad thing. Sexuality is not evil, and I would appreciate if sex-negative attitudes do not spread in this community.

--Fippe (talk) 00:03, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Virginity is regularly used to definite purity and a sense of being "untouched" (see virgin cocktails, virgin land, etc.). The modern terminology of virgin comes from the medieval church viewpoint that sexual activity is sinful. Wanting to avoid the word "virgin" is not "sex-negative" as the word itself is deep-rooted in sex-negative attitudes. It is the usage of the word "virgin" here that would be causing any sex-negative attitudes, which is the reason people want it changed, to remove that negative viewpoint. The implication that virginity = purity (which again, is what the modern definition stems from) implies that sexual activity is dirty and impure. The damage caused by the usage is harmful in a sex-negative way. If you're against sex-negativity, you'd be against using the word virgin to mean pure and untouched rather than for it. --KerrMcF (talk) 00:19, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support -> I support the "Virgin Graticule" renaming, because while a graticule is not a person, the other terminology associated with using this term ("deflowering", etc.) is generally applied to women, not objects or abstract concepts. When "virgin" is applied in other ways, it generally implies that the "first contact" that makes something not "virgin" contaminates / sullies / ruins it in some way (see wikitionary: virgin). Geohashing should not be contaminating / sullying / ruining the graticules with one expedition!
  • The argument that there is a lot of effort to change it and no one has stepped up yet could be tempered somewhat by realizing that there are 64,800 graticules (roughly 16,200 on land?) and the achievement has been claimed only 772 times. That means we're at around 5% of the "not just ocean" graticules so far - any change now would become the overwhelming majority of the achievements as time passes. That being said, comparing it to the "Land" achievement about 40% of the geohashers who care about achievements have this one so far. As to how many are still active, I don't have those stats.
  • I think the "First Expedition" name Needs work. While "First Expedition" ties in really well with the "Expedition" terminology and does not have problematic overtones, I could see a lot of people mistaking it for "My First Expedition" in a similar way as "Earliest Geohasher" gets confused. I think "Pathfinder" might be closer (see wikitionary: pathfinder) but don't feel strongly about it.

• I do not oppose renaming the MNB / MNIMB achievement, for similar reasons to those stated above by Fippe. Mother Nature has been personified throughout history as an unflappable deity, who would never actually be "your bitch" or necessarily care enough about you to make you "her bitch", therefore the sarcasm in the achievement title is clear. But I understand someone not wanting to use the term, and avoiding the achievement.

--Ironeagl (talk) 23:40, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

That wiktionary source says nothing about "contaminating / sullying / ruining" in regards to virginity, and Geohashing already isn't about that. --Fippe (talk) 00:03, 21 February 2024 (UTC)