Talk:Renaming Proposal
From Geohashing
This page has a lot of comments, so in an attempt to improve readability I've separated individual conversations and their replies. If this is upsetting to anyone, feel free to revert it.
Comments on Renaming
- Support -> With people having voiced their concerns in the Discord server, I side with the motion to rename these achievements for a more welcoming and validating environment. Turning the MNIMB and MNB titles to ones with the word "humble" instead does not change the core intent behind the original meaning, and this change offers a more clean substitute for those sensitive to the offending word "bitch." For the Virgin Graticule achievement, the notion of "deflowering" a "virgin" graticule might give a meta-textual implication of non-consensual sexual activity to some users, whom would rather not have such imagery brought to mind. I am for selecting the name First Exploration for this achievement, as it is unambiguous and offers little or no colonial implications that titles such as Pioneer would have. Hopefully by making these changes, people can feel more comfortable visiting the wiki and not have to see anything which they feel is dismissive to their prior experiences.
- I strongly oppose renaming the Virgin Graticule Achievement for several reasons.
- The name is not problematic. Graticules aren't persons. Calling them "virgin" is not shameful. (Being a person who is a virgin of course is not shameful either.) Once we realize that we aren't discussing a person but a graticule the name becomes unproblematic.
- Deflowering does not imply non-consentual activities. Cambridge Dictionary seems to agree. If one were to believe that (human) virgins can only experience non-consentual sex that would say less about Geohashing and more about oneself's projections.
- There is no good alternative. Many proposals are out there, but I haven't head one that is not
- actually problematic unlike the current name, with communist or imperialist undertones.
- a misnomer. "First Expedition"? An Expedition does not mean that the coordinates were reached, but the achievement is only awarded if the coordinates were reached. "Trailblazer"? The first person to reach coordinates in a particular graticule is not blazing anyone's trail. The second expedition is not easier because there has already been one.
- clunky or simply bland.
- A name change is bound to create confusion. The virgin graticule achievement is the third-most awarded achievement. Geohashing is not the most active community out there, we have people returning after month-, year- or decade-long breaks, spreading the news that one of the most central achievements has been renamed will literally be a never-ending task.
- Doing a full rename requires work that I don't think anyone is up to do, certainly not me. We can't just move the page, change the ribbon template and call it a day. The achievement, since it is central to geohashing, is referred to on many other pages. Are we also going to change the thousands of existing expedition reports? I don't think that is actually possible, but if we don't, it will further confuse new Geohashers reading old reports.
A while ago, a relatively new geohasher wanted to improve the aesthetics of ribbon templates, created Template:Ribbon2, migrated some of the ribbon templates, but not all of them, and then became inactive. Now we have two different ribbon types. Completing that migration would be trivial compared to remaning the Virgin Graticule Achievement, but so far, nobody has actually done it.
- I do not oppose renaming the MNB consolation prize/MNIMB achievement.
- Since Mother Nature is not actually a person, I doubt it is going to be offended by being called a bitch. And calling oneself a bitch is just referring to oneself, not insulting anyone else. However, "bitch" actually is an insult and I understand if people don't want to call themselves that.
- I mainly do not oppose since the proposed alternative names are similar enough to not cause as much confusion, and MNB/MNIMB are not as central to Geohashing as the Virgin Graticule Achievement is. Consequently, not doing a full rename would not be as catastrophic.
- However, I do expect those voting in support to actually do the renaming work. Again, not just moving the pages, changing the ribbon templates, and calling it a day. An actual full rename.
- Note on personification: Despite a graticule (as you correctly pointed out) not being a person, by using this term we are describing it as if it is. It's less about shame and whether or not a graticule has feelings but rather that (as Arlo said at Talk:Virgin Graticule#name in 2020) the way we use language affects the way people view things. By using words that have connotations such as those of the word 'Virgin', we are causing issues with comfort and accessibility. If a significant amount of people feel uncomfortable about the current name and have thought about it in terms of sexuality for at least 15 years now, why bother standing so strongly with this position? I understand the points about logistical issues, but your stance that it doesn't cause issues simply because you say so despite many people repeatedly mentioning their discomfort feels odd to me.
- --KerrMcF (talk) 23:30, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
- Quick note on 'First Expedition': This is different to the suggested term of "First Exploration" which would work as it specifies actually exploring the geohash point, but I understand your point and agree on the aspect that the name may need a little work to avoid confusion.
- --KerrMcF (talk) 23:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
- "First Exploration" was your suggestion - the page suggests "First Expedition". I'm not happy with "Exploration" either, because that just introduces another term predestined to confuse new Geohashers - our nomenclature is already complicated enough as is, I don't want to have to explain the difference between exploration and expedition for the next decades.
- You cite a number of people disagreeing with the current name, but neglect all those who claim the achievement without any complaints. The reason that you won't find tons of people praising the current name is because people rarely see the point voicing their approval of the status quo.
- While the root of the metaphor is sexual, I have yet to see any reason why that is a bad thing. Sexuality is not evil, and I would appreciate if sex-negative attitudes do not spread in this community.
- --Fippe (talk) 00:03, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- Virginity is regularly used to definite purity and a sense of being "untouched" (see virgin cocktails, virgin land, etc.). The modern terminology of virgin comes from the medieval church viewpoint that sexual activity is sinful. Wanting to avoid the word "virgin" is not "sex-negative" as the word itself is deep-rooted in sex-negative attitudes. It is the usage of the word "virgin" here that would be causing any sex-negative attitudes, which is the reason people want it changed, to remove that negative viewpoint. The implication that virginity = purity (which again, is what the modern definition stems from) implies that sexual activity is dirty and impure. The damage caused by the usage is harmful in a sex-negative way. If you're against sex-negativity, you'd be against using the word virgin to mean pure and untouched rather than for it.
- --KerrMcF (talk) 00:19, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- I went ahead and found some sources/additional reading material pertaining to KerrMcF's argument above about the flaws behind the concept of virginity:
- The Purity Myth: How America's Obsession with Virginity Is Hurting Young Women (2009) by Jessica Valenti, full text here ([1]) if you have the time, sadly not more international in focus.
- If you don't have the time, this article ([2]) from ABC Everyday sums up the pertinent themes pretty well.
- All That's Interesting did an article here ([3]) about the history of virginity and what we can infer in the modern day about it as a social construct and not a universal truth.
- I might find more articles and literature in the future and link them here if I feel it is necessary.
- - JBest (talk) 02:41, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- I went ahead and found some sources/additional reading material pertaining to KerrMcF's argument above about the flaws behind the concept of virginity:
- Support -> I support the "Virgin Graticule" renaming, because while a graticule is not a person, the other terminology associated with using this term ("deflowering", etc.) is generally applied to women, not objects or abstract concepts. When "virgin" is applied in other ways, it generally implies that the "first contact" that makes something not "virgin" contaminates / sullies / ruins it in some way (see wikitionary: virgin). Geohashing should not be contaminating / sullying / ruining the graticules with one expedition!
- The argument that there is a lot of effort to change it and no one has stepped up yet could be tempered somewhat by realizing that there are 64,800 graticules (roughly 16,200 on land?) and the achievement has been claimed only 772 times. That means we're at around 5% of the "not just ocean" graticules so far - any change now would become the overwhelming majority of the achievements as time passes. That being said, comparing it to the "Land" achievement about 40% of the geohashers who care about achievements have this one so far. As to how many are still active, I don't have those stats.
- I think the "First Expedition" name Needs work. While "First Expedition" ties in really well with the "Expedition" terminology and does not have problematic overtones, I could see a lot of people mistaking it for "My First Expedition" in a similar way as "Earliest Geohasher" gets confused. I think "Pathfinder" might be closer (see wikitionary: pathfinder) but don't feel strongly about it.
- I do not oppose renaming the MNB / MNIMB achievement, for similar reasons to those stated above by Fippe. Mother Nature has been personified throughout history as an unflappable deity, who would never actually be "your bitch" or necessarily care enough about you to make you "her bitch", therefore the sarcasm in the achievement title is clear. But I understand someone not wanting to use the term, and avoiding the achievement.
- On the land graticule stats - when I did my land graticule map I came up with an estimate closer to 30,000 than 16,200 land graticules; a lot depends on how we're counting Antarctica, though. Admittedly a lot of the "land" graticules contain just a few tiny islands. --January First-of-May (talk) 21:33, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- I support renaming the Virgin Graticule achievement. Regardless of the arguments about whether or not virginity/"deflowering" promote (or demean) virginity as a concept, I feel that this achievement unnecessarily attaches a sexual connotation, which is likely to be exclusionary to those who'd rather participate in geohashing without exposure to sexual concepts. (Note that I don't feel any need to change the achievement about having sex at a hashpoint, because this is specifically and necessarily sexual!) I think "First Exploration" is fine, but I'd love to hear other ideas too. --Dan Q (talk) 11:47, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- I do not oppose renaming the MNB / MNIMB achievement. In my circles/local vernacular "bitch" is not likely to cause offence, but I'm aware that it might elsewhere in the world and in other communities. --Dan Q (talk) 11:47, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- I do not oppose the MNB / MNIMB rename in theory because I understand that the word "bitch" can have major negative connotations to some people, especially in a context where it could be applied to themselves. I personally do not find those names particularly troublesome, and would be fine with them staying; as far as I'm concerned it adds to the fun.
- However, I think that the specific proposed rename option very much needs work, at least on the achievement side; I would not support an achievement named "Mother Nature's Humbler". I do not expect a typical geohasher to understand what exactly is meant by "humbler" there, and the reversal of the naming convention such that the achievement is now the shorter name of the two (that is, follows the pattern of the former consolation prize name) would probably also be confusing. In addition, the consolation prize is based on the achievement rather than vice versa, and I do not see why we should rework this setup such that the achievement is clearly (and awkwardly) derivative on the consolation prize.
- Unfortunately I cannot think of a better candidate offhand. If I manage to figure out what could actually work (and would not be even worse than "bitch") I will try to add that to my response.
- However, I think that the specific proposed rename option very much needs work, at least on the achievement side; I would not support an achievement named "Mother Nature's Humbler". I do not expect a typical geohasher to understand what exactly is meant by "humbler" there, and the reversal of the naming convention such that the achievement is now the shorter name of the two (that is, follows the pattern of the former consolation prize name) would probably also be confusing. In addition, the consolation prize is based on the achievement rather than vice versa, and I do not see why we should rework this setup such that the achievement is clearly (and awkwardly) derivative on the consolation prize.
- I also do not oppose the Virgin Graticule rename, for similar reasons; I do not find any offence in this name, but I can see how some people would (especially females). I agree that some of the proposed names would also be confusing for other reasons; I would probably need a more specific list to comment on any options individually. Unfortunately I'm generally fairly bad at picking up unfortunate connotations. Out of the options in this thread so far, "Pathfinder" is my favorite, but I think I've seen even better options proposed on Discord that I cannot recall at the moment.
- --January First-of-May (talk) 21:33, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
- A list of suggestions so far would be as follows:
- First Discovery
- Pioneer
- Trailblazer
- Cartographer
- Harbinger
- First Contact
- First Exploration
- Terra Cognita / Mare Cognita
- Mapper
- Pathfinder
- Wayfinder
- Forerunner
- "Various Registrar" (see: #195)
- A list of suggestions so far would be as follows:
- I do not oppose the MNB / MNIMB rename: I don't feel offended by the old names, but I can see how people could. If possible, I would not touch old expedition reports (so they still show the old name), but register an automatic forwarding so that the link now shows the 'new' name, and people will start using it over time. I agree with January First-of-May that MNIMB's new name feels a bit cumbersome, but I would be ok with using it anyways.
- Virgin Graticule needs work.
- First, we need to select a specific alternative name. Voting on 'something else' isn't productive. I feel some of the suggested names are themselves problematic - like Exploration almost sounding like Expedition, which it isn't, and confusion is also something we should avoid where possible.
- Second, we need to define what we actually want to change: Do we just want new reports to use the new term? How would that interface with tools like geohashing.win? Do we want to update the achievement (automatically) in old report's "achievement" sections? That might be done automatically, but it might make the text in the reports make much less sense. Do we want to rewrite all reports manually that contain the word "virgin"? Fippe correctly notes that depending on what we want a name change here might bring a lot of work - and that visiting a virgin graticule is something some of us grow much more attached to than most other achievements. I personally adore the Icon used for virgin graticules, and would like to keep it that way. I don't know how that could work with a new name, sadly. Could a compromise be to rename the category of 'deflowered graticules'? Because that felt totally unnecessary and offensive, and I assume changing the category is much less work and less likely to draw opposition.
Torodeas (talk) 09:08, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- I do agree the idea of editing all the reports to have them not say "virgin" would be a cumbersome task; plus, when it comes to reporters saying the word itself in their reports and not as part of the achievement, editing what they said doesn't sit right with me and feels like censorship. It's their choice of words and it is reflective of the times when it was normal to say this. If we should get around to changing the Virgin Graticule achievement, what I might suggest (keeping in mind I do not fully understand the logistics yet) is focus on editing the achievement boxes themselves: they are easy to track down and the majority of expedition pages do not have them. As we go along, we possibly could create redirects for any in-text instances of the name "Virgin Graticule Achievement" to link to the newly named page, with possibly a small disclaimer saying "hey, we changed the name!" on that page. At the very least we should start small and do away the usage of "deflowered" graticules in the main wiki vocabulary, but not necessarily the expedition pages themselves, those can be edited by the original posters as they feel the need.
- Will this be hard work? Of course it will, and I do not expect Fippe to do all of the work alone should we follow through. It's on us to keep this wiki going, and I think we can pull it off with enough focused effort. I will certainly help edit once I find the time to do so in my already hectic life. - JBest (talk) 13:15, 22 February 2024 (UTC)
- Do not oppose. Lightrider (talk) 19:20, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
Strongly support renaming virgin graticule - I'm uncomfortable using the term, and the prevalence of the term makes me hesitant to introduce others to the community. More or less anything would be an improvement, but that being said:
- Terra Cognita, Pathfinder, Wayfinder, Trailblazer: my favorites of the bunch
- First Discovery, First Contact, Harbinger, Forerunner: fine, not particularly interesting IMO. First Contact feels better suited for something similar to ambassador and/or one of the meetup graph ones, but I don't think it's a serious issue.
- First Exploration: Potential for confusion with
- Cartographer, Mapper: Potential for confusion with OSM achievement
- Various Registrar: niche reference, and I say this as someone who links to xkcds on a regular basis
- Pioneer: dislike due to colonial undertones
Regarding the work: immediately upon the decision being made, update Achievements, Virgin Graticule and {{Virgin graticule}}. Keep a note of the old term somewhere in Virgin Graticule, to minimize confusion (and have redirects, of course - MediaWiki automatically does this on a page move). Update other "general information pages" (eg graticule and country pages), and third-party sites like geohashing.win, as people notice instances of the term and get around to fixing them. Don't mass-edit old expedition reports - these are fine as-is IMO, more historical record than current document - but if a hasher wants to go back and edit their own reports I've no issue with that.
We'd also need to design a new icon - is anyone in the community up to do that? That being said, I'm happy to leave the achievement without an icon for a while if one can't be designed in a hurry.
Do not oppose MNB/MNIMB - not as glaringly bad in my view but I absolutely understand if others feel differently. The proposed names are fine.
Gaelan (talk) 17:11, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- As long as an agreement on the new terminology is reached, I do not oppose renaming these achievements. I don’t really care either way and don’t feel like arguing over it. That said, I personally have absolutely no problem with the current names, and I believe that we should be able to use non-expletives like “bitch” or “virgin” in a tongue-in-cheek way that doesn’t derogate or offend anyone. I do realise that being a non-native speaker of English and living in one of the most liberal societies definitely affect my view though. ― Kripakko (talk) 21:45, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
- I see this exactly the same as Kripakko. I found the names very apt and never thought that this could offend anyone... But these days a lot of energy is being put into this change all over the world. And where this makes sense, I am for it. Only here it seems to me to be a little overreacting. Only because we got into our hobby through a comic strip... So you should be able to understand that the names of the achievements should also be viewed with a wink... Are we also making fun of hobbits and pirates when some of them claim thiese achievements? so we should delete these. Since a renaming wouldn't help at all... just to give 2 examples... I'm glad that we're holding the discussion in English, because in the German language we not only have the word "the" for all nouns, but... three different ones! "das", "der", "die"... And here, too, more and more people are arguing that there aren't enough names for it... Rename it or not: whatever you want, I can live with both... --Globescorer (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
