Talk:Renaming Proposal

From Geohashing

This page has a lot of comments, so in an attempt to improve readability I've separated individual conversations and their replies. If this is upsetting to anyone, feel free to revert it.

How to participate

  1. Add support/oppose comments to the "suggested alternatives" list for each proposal, or add new suggestions if you like.
  2. Add a new section to the bottom of the page explaining your position overall on whether you support/oppose/don't oppose each renaming.

Comments on the renaming process overall

  • Support -> With people having voiced their concerns in the Discord server, I side with the motion to rename these achievements for a more welcoming and validating environment. Turning the MNIMB and MNB titles to ones with the word "humble" instead does not change the core intent behind the original meaning, and this change offers a more clean substitute for those sensitive to the offending word "bitch." For the Virgin Graticule achievement, the notion of "deflowering" a "virgin" graticule might give a meta-textual implication of non-consensual sexual activity to some users, whom would rather not have such imagery brought to mind. I am for selecting the name First Exploration for this achievement, as it is unambiguous and offers little or no colonial implications that titles such as Pioneer would have. Hopefully by making these changes, people can feel more comfortable visiting the wiki and not have to see anything which they feel is dismissive to their prior experiences.
JBest (talk) 16:37, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
  • Support / needs work. I am in favour of renaming these specific achievements. I don't think they should be grouped as one proposal though. Each renaming should be a separate discussion. Stevage (talk) 07:27, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
  • From Discord: Support --SastRe.O 09:06, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
  • From Discord: Support, I really don't care for the mnb names --Tarasaurus 10:46, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
  • From Discord: Support changing the website names; individual geohashers (and past geohashes) will refer to it however they like. Wasn't a huge fan of either side of MNIMB, and though I've hashed both sides, I'll probably not edit my earlier expedition reports. --Thomcat 17:00, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
  • From Discord: Do not oppose, I have no objections to changing it --RecentlyChanged 11:03, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
  • From Discord: Support, I'm for the renaming --MetricSystemDude 15:45, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
  • From Discord: Do not oppose (assumed by KerrMcF; correct. --Leidenfrost), I don't think we should rename achievements just because the names don't fully fit. I agree that objectionable/pejorative names should be changed. But the arguments about which names fit the action better are IMO not substantial enough to warrant a name-change. --Leidenfrost 21:57, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
To clarify, because people think that they are objectionable based on these grounds, I think it is fine to stirr-up renaming talks. I am, however, opposed to changes when they are purely for semantic reasons, that is why it is important for us to agree on a proper replacement. --Leidenfrost (talk) 13:39, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
  • From Discord: Oppose (assumed by KerrMcF), I really don't see the issue with the pun [virgin graticule naming] personally, I thought it was mildly amusing --CupSprink 22:07, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Nature runoff election

We are in a bit of an awkward position regarding the new names for MNB/MNIMB, since the frontrunners One with Nature/Humbled by Mother Nature don't match. Some have voiced their preference for the terms to match, others do not mind should they not match. To clear up the situation, we are holding a runoff election, keeping the polls on this question open for another week. --Fippe (talk) 06:09, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Arrow4.png Note: This poll is closed. One with Nature/Done with Nature as received the most support with 6 votes for and 1 vote against.

  • One with Nature / Humbled by [Mother] Nature
    • Do not oppose --January First-of-May (talk) 06:18, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support but only when we cancel the word "mother" in this constellation --Globescorer (talk) 07:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose because of the mismatch. --Yerushalmi (talk) 07:33, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose (especially dropping the "mother") - fine but One/Done is better. Gaelan (talk) 09:20, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support as 'Humbled by Nature'. This is my preferred option --KerrMcF (talk) 11:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose --π π π (talk) 23:26, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support. I don't care about the mismatch. Also not fussed about the "Mother" bit, mild preference for without. Stevage (talk) 03:47, 19 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose --Leidenfrost (talk) 13:39, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support. Johnwrw (talk) 22:05, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose per Yerushalmi --Fippe (talk) 22:10, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
  • One with Nature / Done with Nature
    • Strongly support, because if we don't choose this one we'll regret the missed opportunity for the rest of our lives. --Yerushalmi (talk) 07:33, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support --Fippe (talk) 06:09, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support --January First-of-May (talk) 06:18, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose (in a positive way :-) --Globescorer (talk) 07:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support Gaelan (talk) 09:20, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose. I get the joke, but 'done with nature' feels very negative. --KerrMcF (talk) 11:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support --π π π (talk)
    • Support --Leidenfrost (talk) 13:39, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose. I don't like "done with", very negative as expressed above. I don't think I'll ever want to claim it if it's called this, but I'm not going to stand in the way of it if people really want one/done symmetry.Johnwrw (talk) 22:05, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Mother Nature's Humbler / Humbled by Mother Nature
    • Do not oppose --Fippe (talk) 06:09, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose but I like more the aboves --Globescorer (talk) 07:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose (especially dropping the "mother") - fine but One/Done is better.
    • Do not oppose. I prefer 'one with'/'humbled by' --KerrMcF (talk) 11:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose. We should really do ranked-choice voting here. --π π π (talk) 23:26, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose I really just don't like "humbler". Stevage (talk) 00:18, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose --Leidenfrost (talk) 13:39, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose. "Humbler" sounds bad. Also inaccurate. Nature is not trying to stop us. Nature doesn't care, so won't feel "humbled" if we get to the point. Johnwrw (talk) 22:05, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Mother Nature's Humbler / Done with Nature
    • Oppose worst of both worlds --Fippe (talk) 06:09, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose for the same reasons --January First-of-May (talk) 06:18, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose same --Globescorer (talk) 07:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose because of the mismatch. --Yerushalmi (talk) 07:33, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose ditto all the above. Gaelan (talk) 09:20, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose for the 'done with nature' negativity --KerrMcF (talk) 11:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose --π π π (talk) 23:26, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose I really just don't like "humbler". Stevage (talk) 00:18, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose --Leidenfrost (talk) 13:39, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose. Just want to join the pile on here Johnwrw (talk) 22:05, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Suggested alternatives

This section aims to identify the best alternative *if* each achievement is being renamed. Underneath each suggestion, indicate Support if you like it, or Oppose with a reason if you have a problem with this particular change. (Don't use this space to vote against renaming at all). Add further suggestions at will.

Some of these 'support' votes have been inferred from comments below.

Virgin Graticule [Achievement]

Arrow4.png Note: This poll is closed. Graticule Unlocked has received the most support with 9 votes for and 0 votes against.

  • Trailblazer
    • Support Stevage (talk) 07:58, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support KT
    • Support Gaelan
    • Do not oppose Jens1964
    • Oppose misnomer, and I dislike the proposed terminology --Fippe (talk) 20:24, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose --KerrMcF (talk) 23:23, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose misnomer --Globescorer (talk) 08:42, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support JBest (talk) 00:18, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support --π π π (talk) 14:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose misnomer, to Stevage: While your dictionary doesn't say so, to me Trailblazing has in to include making it easier for followers, and geohashing isn't like that. --Torodeas (talk) 19:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • From Discord: Support, I like Trailblazer --Haberdasher 17:15, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
Comment: Two people have said "misnomer" in their opposition. One dictionary gives "the first person to do something or go somewhere, who shows that it is also possible for other people" as the main definition - is that not exactly what this is? Stevage (talk)
The first person to reach coordinates in a particular graticule is not making it easier for others in the future. The first person is not blazing anyone's trail. --Fippe (talk) 20:24, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Pioneer
    • Support Jens1964
    • Oppose dislike due to colonial undertones Gaelan
    • Do not oppose communist/imperialist undertones, still better than other suggestions --Fippe (talk) 22:51, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose --KerrMcF (talk) 23:23, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose military meaning --Globescorer (talk) 08:42, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose agreeing with Gaelan's arguement JBest (talk) 00:18, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose --π π π (talk) 14:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose, same as Globescorer --Torodeas (talk) 19:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • From Discord: Oppose, Pioneer can have tricky colonialist implications, though still better than Virgin in that regard --Haberdasher 17:15, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
  • First Exploration
    • Oppose Potential confusion --Torodeas (talk) 19:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose Potential confusion Gaelan
    • Oppose potential confusion --Fippe (talk) 20:24, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose --KerrMcF (talk) 23:23, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose --Globescorer (talk) 08:42, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose I can see how name could get confusing with "expedition" JBest (talk) 00:18, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose, not catchy enough --π π π (talk) 14:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Terra Cognita / Mare Cognita
    • Support Gaelan
    • Support BarbaraTables
    • Needs work incomplete terminology --Fippe (talk) 22:51, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose --KerrMcF (talk) 23:23, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose Maybe biased because of a magazine from the federal government in Switzerland --Globescorer (talk) 08:50, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose It's cool but some might not want to pull out a Latin dictionary. JBest (talk) 00:18, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Needs work, adjective unclear --π π π (talk) 14:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Needs work incomplete terminology --Torodeas (talk) 19:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Pathfinder
    • Needs work Ironeagl
    • Support Gaelan
    • Support BarbaraTables
    • Oppose incomplete terminology; potential confusion --Fippe (talk) 06:09, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose --KerrMcF (talk) 23:23, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose --Globescorer (talk) 08:50, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Needs work not good for graticules, but good for people exploring them. JBest (talk) 00:18, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Needs work, adjective unclear --π π π (talk) 14:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose --Torodeas (talk) 19:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Wayfinder
    • Support Gaelan
    • Oppose incomplete terminology; potential confusion --Fippe (talk) 06:09, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose --KerrMcF (talk) 23:23, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose --Globescorer (talk) 08:50, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Needs work same argument as pathfinder. JBest (talk) 00:18, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Needs work, adjective unclear --π π π (talk) 14:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose --Torodeas (talk) 19:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
  • New graticule on the block
    • Support Jens1964
    • Support KT
    • Needs work incomplete terminology --Fippe (talk) 22:51, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose --KerrMcF (talk) 23:23, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Needs work --Globescorer (talk) 08:59, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose it's excessively goofy, but to be fair geohashing is already a pretty goofy sport in itself JBest (talk) 00:18, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose, I don't understand it (also too long, adjective unclear) --π π π (talk) 14:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose, I don't understand it --Torodeas (talk) 19:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Graticule Explorer
    • Support BarbaraTables
    • Do not oppose --KerrMcF (talk) 23:23, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose --Globescorer (talk) 08:59, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Needs work that's what we all already are. graticule explorers. JBest (talk) 00:18, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose per JBest --Fippe (talk) 20:24, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose, not catchy enough --π π π (talk) 14:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose --Torodeas (talk) 19:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Graticule unlocked
    • Support - also has the benefit of terminology, "unlocked graticules". Stevage (talk)
    • Support --KerrMcF (talk) 23:49, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support, assuming the terminology will be "Graticule Unlocked Achievement"/"Locked Graticule"/"Unlocked Graticule"/"unlocking a graticule" --Fippe (talk) 06:09, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support --Globescorer (talk) 08:42, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support beautiful. JBest (talk) 00:18, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support Changed my mind, this is the best one BarbaraTables (talk) 12:34, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support, but I think the achievement should be called Unlocked achievement for brevity. Nicely replaces the terminology for virgin and even introduces a new one for non-virgin graticules. --π π π (talk) 14:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support, to me the best option. Johnwrw (talk) 22:30, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support, if we're doing a change, this should be it. It has good terminology for the different categories we need, and uses neutral language that should be safe for the foreseeable future. --Torodeas (talk) 19:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Unknown Graticule
    • Support --Globescorer (talk) 08:56, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose --KerrMcF (talk) 09:38, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Needs work feels incomplete. JBest (talk) 00:18, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose I don't think you can fairly say a graticule is unknown before the first hashpoint was reached. We knew it was there all the time. --Torodeas (talk) 19:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Mother Nature's Bitch [Consolation Prize]

Arrow4.png Note: This poll is closed. Vote in the nature runoff election until 2024-03-25.

  • Humbled by Mother Nature
    • Support Stevage (talk)
    • Support KT
    • Support Jens1964
    • Support --KerrMcF (talk) 23:23, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose --Fippe (talk) 06:09, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support --Globescorer (talk) 09:20, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support JBest (talk) 00:18, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support --Gict (talk) 19:45, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose, it's good but I like the contrast between MNB / MNIMB, and One With Nature is better than Humbler. --π π π (talk) 14:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
    • SupportJohnwrw (talk) 22:35, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
    • From Discord: Support, humbled sounds fine to me --Frogman 16:01, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
  • Done With Nature
    • Support Gaelan (talk) 12:53, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support One With Nature / Done With Nature is awesome BarbaraTables (talk) 12:56, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose --KerrMcF (talk) 17:29, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support per BarbaraTables --Fippe (talk) 20:24, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support, but only in case of One / Done, otherwise prefer Humbled --π π π (talk) 14:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose, I prefer humbled. I appreciate the neatness of one/done, but I don't think the meaning of "done" is quite right. You might have succeeded but still be totally done with nature by the end of it. Johnwrw (talk) 22:35, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Lost With Nature
    • Support Gaelan (talk) 12:53, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose --KerrMcF (talk) 17:29, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Mother Nature Is My Bitch [Achievement]

Arrow4.png Note: This poll is closed. Vote in the nature runoff election until 2024-03-25.

  • Mother Nature's Humbler
    • Oppose - awkward, "humbler" is not a real word, we can do better. Stevage
    • Oppose - January First-of-May
    • Do not oppose --KerrMcF (talk) 23:23, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose --Fippe (talk) 06:09, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose --Globescorer (talk) 15:56, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support I see nothing wrong with "humbler" as a noun JBest (talk) 00:18, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose, we can make up new words if we want. Support in connection with Humbled, but One / Done is better. --π π π (talk) 14:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
    • From Discord: Support, humbler sounds fine to me --Frogman 16:01, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
  • Unstoppable force
    • Support Stevage (talk)
    • Support --KerrMcF (talk) 23:23, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support JBest (talk) 00:18, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose Too similar to Juggernaut (defintion: an unstoppable force) BarbaraTables (talk) 12:34, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose per BarbaraTables --Fippe (talk) 20:24, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose, per above --π π π (talk) 14:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Beast mode
    • Support Stevage (talk)
    • Support Jens1964
    • Do not oppose --KerrMcF (talk) 23:23, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose i feel like people would get lost on the turn of phrase, but maybe i'm just out of touch JBest (talk) 00:18, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose --π π π (talk) 14:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Mother Nature's Conqueror
    • Support - keeps a strong connection the the consolidation price, and sounds better than "humbler"". Torodeas (talk) 20:01, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support BarbaraTables
    • Do not oppose --KerrMcF (talk) 23:23, 10 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose --Fippe (talk) 06:09, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support - like the term "Mother nature" in both ribbons --Globescorer (talk) 15:56, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Needs work "conqueror" feels very militaristic. maybe we can substitute a similar word without the undertone? JBest (talk) 00:18, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Weak oppose - I think it's a clunky phrase, and I don't love the concept of "conquering" an anthrophomorphised nature. Stevage (talk)
    • Support --Gict (talk) 19:45, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose --π π π (talk) 14:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose, same as Stevage, don't like the idea of conquering nature. Our species needs to learn to live with natureJohnwrw (talk) 22:41, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
  • At one with nature or One with nature
    • Support (not contingent on 'done with nature' also getting up). Stevage (talk)
    • Do not oppose --KerrMcF (talk) 12:30, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support Voicing my support for "One With Nature" / "Done With Nature" BarbaraTables (talk) 12:56, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support per BarbaraTables --Fippe (talk) 20:24, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support for One With Nature in connection with Done --π π π (talk) 14:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Support, I like that this does not imply that nature is some antagonistic force actually trying to stop you.Johnwrw (talk) 22:43, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Undaunted by Mother Nature
    • Support - removes the element of conquering/besting/defeating Stevage (talk)
    • Support --Globescorer (talk) 09:21, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Do not oppose --KerrMcF (talk) 12:30, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Oppose sounds clunky --Fippe (talk) 20:24, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Needs work, only support if the opposite is Daunted --π π π (talk) 14:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
  • Unstoppable by Mother Nature
    • Support same thinkings as Stevages undaunted (but more understandable for not english speaking people) --Globescorer (talk) 09:21, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
    • Needs work, is the phrase 'unstoppable by' correct? It feels very clunky --KerrMcF (talk) 12:30, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Comments on each proposal

  • I strongly oppose renaming the Virgin Graticule Achievement for several reasons.
    • The name is not problematic. Graticules aren't persons. Calling them "virgin" is not shameful. (Being a person who is a virgin of course is not shameful either.) Once we realize that we aren't discussing a person but a graticule the name becomes unproblematic.
    • Deflowering does not imply non-consentual activities. Cambridge Dictionary seems to agree. If one were to believe that (human) virgins can only experience non-consentual sex that would say less about Geohashing and more about oneself's projections.
    • There is no good alternative. Many proposals are out there, but I haven't head one that is not
      • actually problematic unlike the current name, with communist or imperialist undertones.
      • a misnomer. "First Expedition"? An Expedition does not mean that the coordinates were reached, but the achievement is only awarded if the coordinates were reached. "Trailblazer"? The first person to reach coordinates in a particular graticule is not blazing anyone's trail. The second expedition is not easier because there has already been one.
      • clunky or simply bland.
    • A name change is bound to create confusion. The virgin graticule achievement is the third-most awarded achievement. Geohashing is not the most active community out there, we have people returning after month-, year- or decade-long breaks, spreading the news that one of the most central achievements has been renamed will literally be a never-ending task.
    • Doing a full rename requires work that I don't think anyone is up to do, certainly not me. We can't just move the page, change the ribbon template and call it a day. The achievement, since it is central to geohashing, is referred to on many other pages. Are we also going to change the thousands of existing expedition reports? I don't think that is actually possible, but if we don't, it will further confuse new Geohashers reading old reports.
      A while ago, a relatively new geohasher wanted to improve the aesthetics of ribbon templates, created Template:Ribbon2, migrated some of the ribbon templates, but not all of them, and then became inactive. Now we have two different ribbon types. Completing that migration would be trivial compared to remaning the Virgin Graticule Achievement, but so far, nobody has actually done it.
  • I do not oppose renaming the MNB consolation prize/MNIMB achievement.
    • Since Mother Nature is not actually a person, I doubt it is going to be offended by being called a bitch. And calling oneself a bitch is just referring to oneself, not insulting anyone else. However, "bitch" actually is an insult and I understand if people don't want to call themselves that.
    • I mainly do not oppose since the proposed alternative names are similar enough to not cause as much confusion, and MNB/MNIMB are not as central to Geohashing as the Virgin Graticule Achievement is. Consequently, not doing a full rename would not be as catastrophic.
    • However, I do expect those voting in support to actually do the renaming work. Again, not just moving the pages, changing the ribbon templates, and calling it a day. An actual full rename.
--Fippe (talk) 21:58, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
Note on personification: Despite a graticule (as you correctly pointed out) not being a person, by using this term we are describing it as if it is. It's less about shame and whether or not a graticule has feelings but rather that (as Arlo said at Talk:Virgin Graticule#name in 2020) the way we use language affects the way people view things. By using words that have connotations such as those of the word 'Virgin', we are causing issues with comfort and accessibility. If a significant amount of people feel uncomfortable about the current name and have thought about it in terms of sexuality for at least 15 years now, why bother standing so strongly with this position? I understand the points about logistical issues, but your stance that it doesn't cause issues simply because you say so despite many people repeatedly mentioning their discomfort feels odd to me.
--KerrMcF (talk) 23:30, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
Quick note on 'First Expedition': This is different to the suggested term of "First Exploration" which would work as it specifies actually exploring the geohash point, but I understand your point and agree on the aspect that the name may need a little work to avoid confusion.
--KerrMcF (talk) 23:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
"First Exploration" was your suggestion - the page suggests "First Expedition". I'm not happy with "Exploration" either, because that just introduces another term predestined to confuse new Geohashers - our nomenclature is already complicated enough as is, I don't want to have to explain the difference between exploration and expedition for the next decades.
You cite a number of people disagreeing with the current name, but neglect all those who claim the achievement without any complaints. The reason that you won't find tons of people praising the current name is because people rarely see the point voicing their approval of the status quo.
While the root of the metaphor is sexual, I have yet to see any reason why that is a bad thing. Sexuality is not evil, and I would appreciate if sex-negative attitudes do not spread in this community.
--Fippe (talk) 00:03, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
Virginity is regularly used to definite purity and a sense of being "untouched" (see virgin cocktails, virgin land, etc.). The modern terminology of virgin comes from the medieval church viewpoint that sexual activity is sinful. Wanting to avoid the word "virgin" is not "sex-negative" as the word itself is deep-rooted in sex-negative attitudes. It is the usage of the word "virgin" here that would be causing any sex-negative attitudes, which is the reason people want it changed, to remove that negative viewpoint. The implication that virginity = purity (which again, is what the modern definition stems from) implies that sexual activity is dirty and impure. The damage caused by the usage is harmful in a sex-negative way. If you're against sex-negativity, you'd be against using the word virgin to mean pure and untouched rather than for it.
--KerrMcF (talk) 00:19, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
I went ahead and found some sources/additional reading material pertaining to KerrMcF's argument above about the flaws behind the concept of virginity:
  • The Purity Myth: How America's Obsession with Virginity Is Hurting Young Women (2009) by Jessica Valenti, full text here ([1]) if you have the time, sadly not more international in focus.
  • If you don't have the time, this article ([2]) from ABC Everyday sums up the pertinent themes pretty well.
  • All That's Interesting did an article here ([3]) about the history of virginity and what we can infer in the modern day about it as a social construct and not a universal truth.
I might find more articles and literature in the future and link them here if I feel it is necessary.
- JBest (talk) 02:41, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
  • Support -> I support the "Virgin Graticule" renaming, because while a graticule is not a person, the other terminology associated with using this term ("deflowering", etc.) is generally applied to women, not objects or abstract concepts. When "virgin" is applied in other ways, it generally implies that the "first contact" that makes something not "virgin" contaminates / sullies / ruins it in some way (see wikitionary: virgin). Geohashing should not be contaminating / sullying / ruining the graticules with one expedition!
    • The argument that there is a lot of effort to change it and no one has stepped up yet could be tempered somewhat by realizing that there are 64,800 graticules (roughly 16,200 on land?) and the achievement has been claimed only 772 times. That means we're at around 5% of the "not just ocean" graticules so far - any change now would become the overwhelming majority of the achievements as time passes. That being said, comparing it to the "Land" achievement about 40% of the geohashers who care about achievements have this one so far. As to how many are still active, I don't have those stats.
    • I think the "First Expedition" name Needs work. While "First Expedition" ties in really well with the "Expedition" terminology and does not have problematic overtones, I could see a lot of people mistaking it for "My First Expedition" in a similar way as "Earliest Geohasher" gets confused. I think "Pathfinder" might be closer (see wikitionary: pathfinder) but don't feel strongly about it.
  • I do not oppose renaming the MNB / MNIMB achievement, for similar reasons to those stated above by Fippe. Mother Nature has been personified throughout history as an unflappable deity, who would never actually be "your bitch" or necessarily care enough about you to make you "her bitch", therefore the sarcasm in the achievement title is clear. But I understand someone not wanting to use the term, and avoiding the achievement.
--Ironeagl (talk) 23:40, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
That wiktionary source says nothing about "contaminating / sullying / ruining" in regards to virginity, and Geohashing already isn't about that. --Fippe (talk) 00:03, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
On the land graticule stats - when I did my land graticule map I came up with an estimate closer to 30,000 than 16,200 land graticules; a lot depends on how we're counting Antarctica, though. Admittedly a lot of the "land" graticules contain just a few tiny islands. --January First-of-May (talk) 21:33, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
  • I support renaming the Virgin Graticule achievement. Regardless of the arguments about whether or not virginity/"deflowering" promote (or demean) virginity as a concept, I feel that this achievement unnecessarily attaches a sexual connotation, which is likely to be exclusionary to those who'd rather participate in geohashing without exposure to sexual concepts. (Note that I don't feel any need to change the achievement about having sex at a hashpoint, because this is specifically and necessarily sexual!) I think "First Exploration" is fine, but I'd love to hear other ideas too. --Dan Q (talk) 11:47, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
  • I do not oppose renaming the MNB / MNIMB achievement. In my circles/local vernacular "bitch" is not likely to cause offence, but I'm aware that it might elsewhere in the world and in other communities. --Dan Q (talk) 11:47, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
  • I do not oppose the MNB / MNIMB rename in theory because I understand that the word "bitch" can have major negative connotations to some people, especially in a context where it could be applied to themselves. I personally do not find those names particularly troublesome, and would be fine with them staying; as far as I'm concerned it adds to the fun.
    • However, I think that the specific proposed rename option very much needs work, at least on the achievement side; I would not support an achievement named "Mother Nature's Humbler". I do not expect a typical geohasher to understand what exactly is meant by "humbler" there, and the reversal of the naming convention such that the achievement is now the shorter name of the two (that is, follows the pattern of the former consolation prize name) would probably also be confusing. In addition, the consolation prize is based on the achievement rather than vice versa, and I do not see why we should rework this setup such that the achievement is clearly (and awkwardly) derivative on the consolation prize.
      • Unfortunately I cannot think of a better candidate offhand. If I manage to figure out what could actually work (and would not be even worse than "bitch") I will try to add that to my response.
  • I also do not oppose the Virgin Graticule rename, for similar reasons; I do not find any offence in this name, but I can see how some people would (especially females). I agree that some of the proposed names would also be confusing for other reasons; I would probably need a more specific list to comment on any options individually. Unfortunately I'm generally fairly bad at picking up unfortunate connotations. Out of the options in this thread so far, "Pathfinder" is my favorite, but I think I've seen even better options proposed on Discord that I cannot recall at the moment.
--January First-of-May (talk) 21:33, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
  • A list of suggestions so far would be as follows:

[moved to the top -- Stevage]

  • I do not oppose the MNB / MNIMB rename: I don't feel offended by the old names, but I can see how people could. If possible, I would not touch old expedition reports (so they still show the old name), but register an automatic forwarding so that the link now shows the 'new' name, and people will start using it over time. I agree with January First-of-May that MNIMB's new name feels a bit cumbersome, but I would be ok with using it anyways.
  • Virgin Graticule needs work.
    • First, we need to select a specific alternative name. Voting on 'something else' isn't productive. I feel some of the suggested names are themselves problematic - like Exploration almost sounding like Expedition, which it isn't, and confusion is also something we should avoid where possible.
    • Second, we need to define what we actually want to change: Do we just want new reports to use the new term? How would that interface with tools like geohashing.win? Do we want to update the achievement (automatically) in old report's "achievement" sections? That might be done automatically, but it might make the text in the reports make much less sense. Do we want to rewrite all reports manually that contain the word "virgin"? Fippe correctly notes that depending on what we want a name change here might bring a lot of work - and that visiting a virgin graticule is something some of us grow much more attached to than most other achievements. I personally adore the Icon used for virgin graticules, and would like to keep it that way. I don't know how that could work with a new name, sadly. Could a compromise be to rename the category of 'deflowered graticules'? Because that felt totally unnecessary and offensive, and I assume changing the category is much less work and less likely to draw opposition.

Torodeas (talk) 09:08, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

I do agree the idea of editing all the reports to have them not say "virgin" would be a cumbersome task; plus, when it comes to reporters saying the word itself in their reports and not as part of the achievement, editing what they said doesn't sit right with me and feels like censorship. It's their choice of words and it is reflective of the times when it was normal to say this. If we should get around to changing the Virgin Graticule achievement, what I might suggest (keeping in mind I do not fully understand the logistics yet) is focus on editing the achievement boxes themselves: they are easy to track down and the majority of expedition pages do not have them. As we go along, we possibly could create redirects for any in-text instances of the name "Virgin Graticule Achievement" to link to the newly named page, with possibly a small disclaimer saying "hey, we changed the name!" on that page. At the very least we should start small and do away the usage of "deflowered" graticules in the main wiki vocabulary, but not necessarily the expedition pages themselves, those can be edited by the original posters as they feel the need.
Will this be hard work? Of course it will, and I do not expect Fippe to do all of the work alone should we follow through. It's on us to keep this wiki going, and I think we can pull it off with enough focused effort. I will certainly help edit once I find the time to do so in my already hectic life. - JBest (talk) 13:15, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Strongly support renaming virgin graticule - I'm uncomfortable using the term, and the prevalence of the term makes me hesitant to introduce others to the community. More or less anything would be an improvement, but that being said:

  • Terra Cognita, Pathfinder, Wayfinder, Trailblazer: my favorites of the bunch
  • First Discovery, First Contact, Harbinger, Forerunner: fine, not particularly interesting IMO. First Contact feels better suited for something similar to ambassador and/or one of the meetup graph ones, but I don't think it's a serious issue.
  • First Exploration: Potential for confusion with
  • Cartographer, Mapper: Potential for confusion with OSM achievement
  • Various Registrar: niche reference, and I say this as someone who links to xkcds on a regular basis
  • Pioneer: dislike due to colonial undertones

Regarding the work: immediately upon the decision being made, update Achievements, Virgin Graticule and Virgin graticule. Keep a note of the old term somewhere in Virgin Graticule, to minimize confusion (and have redirects, of course - MediaWiki automatically does this on a page move). Update other "general information pages" (eg graticule and country pages), and third-party sites like geohashing.win, as people notice instances of the term and get around to fixing them. Don't mass-edit old expedition reports - these are fine as-is IMO, more historical record than current document - but if a hasher wants to go back and edit their own reports I've no issue with that.

We'd also need to design a new icon - is anyone in the community up to do that? That being said, I'm happy to leave the achievement without an icon for a while if one can't be designed in a hurry.

Do not oppose MNB/MNIMB - not as glaringly bad in my view but I absolutely understand if others feel differently. The proposed names are fine.

Gaelan (talk) 17:11, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

  • As long as an agreement on the new terminology is reached, I do not oppose renaming these achievements. I don’t really care either way and don’t feel like arguing over it. That said, I personally have absolutely no problem with the current names, and I believe that we should be able to use non-expletives like “bitch” or “virgin” in a tongue-in-cheek way that doesn’t derogate or offend anyone. I do realise that being a non-native speaker of English and living in one of the most liberal societies definitely affect my view though. ― Kripakko (talk) 21:45, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
  • I see this exactly the same as Kripakko. I found the names very apt and never thought that this could offend anyone... But these days a lot of energy is being put into this change all over the world. And where this makes sense, I am for it. Only here it seems to me to be a little overreacting. Only because we got into our hobby through a comic strip... So you should be able to understand that the names of the achievements should also be viewed with a wink... Are we also making fun of hobbits and pirates when some of them claim thiese achievements? so we should delete these. Since a renaming wouldn't help at all... just to give 2 examples... I'm glad that we're holding the discussion in English, because in the German language we not only have the word "the" for all nouns, but... three different ones! "das", "der", "die"... And here, too, more and more people are arguing that there aren't enough names for it... Rename it or not: whatever you want, I can live with both... --Globescorer (talk) 12:27, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

I support the proposal.

I just want to say that I think Mother Nature's Conqueror sounds better than Mother Nature's Humbler (and same for Conquered by Mother Nature). "Humbler" gives the impression we're using it solely because it's a euphemism; one reads it and thinks "clearly the word humbler is being chosen solely to avoid saying a more uncomfortable term, and for no other reason". Why not go all in on the name change and not just change it to something more appealing, but change it to something cool as well?

I would have chosen Pioneer as a replacement for Virgin Graticule, but a few people say it has colonial undertones. I don't make that association, but I respect the need to avoid anything that compares Geohashing to colonialism. We're just having some fun walking about! My favourites from others and myself are Terra Cognita (this difficult achievement deserves a prestigious name, and this is definitely it), Pathfinder (seems pretty cool), Graticule Explorer (my own suggestion, just playing around with still having "Graticule" in the name). Definitely Terra Cognita is my favourite.

If we're changing the icon for Virgin Graticule, we can also take the opportunity to make it a more detailed one if we want, too. Maybe have a laurel in it, going with the Latin name? Generally a universally recognised symbol for victory and triumph.

BarbaraTables (talk) 11:36, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Edit: changed my mind, Graticule Unlocked is the coolest. BarbaraTables (talk) 12:34, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I support renaming all three of these three achievements. But I would prefer to take time to find good options for each rename rather than just rushing into them just because an arbitrary 1 month deadline expired.

  • Virgin graticule. This name has given me the icks for many years. All the imagery about "deflowering virgins" is steeped in the history of sexual abuse. It's not cute or funny.
Support renaming to Trailblazer, which has positive associations of helping out other people, and is intuitive and obvious in its meaning.
Do not oppose many of the ones without colonialist connotations, such as pathfinder, mapper, wayfinder etc.
  • Mother Nature Is My Bitch: Needs work. I'm writing out it in full to show just how gross it is, rather than hiding behind the euphemism of MNIMB.
My understanding is the phrase "is my bitch" is this one (from Wiktionary):
> (vulgar, offensive) A submissive person who does what others want; (prison slang) a man forced or coerced into a homoerotic relationship. [from the 20th c]
> Dude, don't be such a bitch. Assert yourself.
> You're so weak-willed with your girlfriend. You must be the real bitch in the relationship.
I haven't yet heard a replacement I'm excited about. "Mother nature's humbler" is just awkward. I'd probably prefer to get away from the whole idea of personifying mother nature. Maybe something like "Unstoppable force" or "Beast mode" or similar.
  • Mother Nature's Bitch. Support renaming to Humbled By Mother Nature. I do like this. It sounds idiomatic and I like the imagery of realising one's limits and finding humility in defeat.

Stevage (talk) 07:39, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

I strongly support changing the "Virgin Graticule". To me, this name feels unnecessarily predatory. It's fine if people are virgins. It's not okay to hunt them down and claim their virginities like trophies.

I think we can do better 🙂

I like Trailblazer as an alternative. My suggestion is New Graticule on the Block because I like a clunky pun.

I also support changing the "bitch" names.

I don't think they need to be renamed in matching pairs.

I like Humbled By Mother Nature. I think it's a neat alternative.

For MNIMB, my suggestions would be something along the lines of the Survivalist achievement. The Bear Grylls achievement? Or, if we wanted matching, the Channelling Mother Nature's Power achievement.

I have never felt great about the original names in question. I'm grateful that we're able to have these discussions.

KT (I don't know how to do that timestamp thing everyone seems to sign off with but please know I'm timestamping this in my heart)

This comment convinced me. Thank you for explaining the problem rather than describing vague discomfort or "icks", unlike some other comments here and unlike some rather patronizing messages I have received in private.
I no longer oppose renaming the virgin graticule achievement, but I still think that the proposal needs work. This whole discussion page reads like brainstorming rather than voting on precise measures. A proposed alternative to the Virgin Graticule Achievement has to also provide alternate terms for Virgin Graticules, Deflowered Graticules, and deflowering a graticule. If the cherry icon should be changed, alternatives have to be proposed before the voting process starts. People need to know what they are actually voting for. --Fippe (talk) 16:01, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

I strongly support changing the "Virgin Graticule". A lot of good points have been made already to support this change. I just want to add that I think that the sexual connotation of virgin, especially connected with deflowering is dominant for most of the people. In the world as it is (especially on the internet) the terms virgin and deflowering are not at all neutral or positve, but in most of the cases connected with violence, abuse or at least with a "special kick" a lot of men search for (to hunt a virgin down like a trophy expresses this clearly). As a new user I was irritated about the name of this archivement from the first moment on. I do not think that it is necessary or helpful to use a term with this kind of "usual" connotation - even if the people who coined it for geohashing did not have any kind of bad thoughts.

I would prefer and support "Pioneer Archivement", and "New Graticule on the Block" and would not oppose "Trailblazer". Trailblazer is less clear for me after this sounds as if the second sucessful expedition would be more easy after the the "Trailblazer" was there.

I also strongly support changing both "bitch" names and support Humbled By Mother Nature. What about "Overcoming Mother Nature`s Power" for MNIMB?

I think that the quality and athomosphere of this renaming discussion is very good - compared with a lot of compareable discussions I have been part of on the internet. The absence of agressive argumets is something the Geohashing community should be and can be proud if. --Jens1964 (talk) 19:15, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Comment re "trailblazer" implying future expeditions would be easier. That was a semi-intentional choice when I suggested it. It's obviously not literally true, but I liked the idea that succeeding for the first time in a graticule is a positive, useful contribution for other people, rather than about conquering/destroying/defiling. (Many achievements have fanciful/whimsical elements to their names/descriptions, so I don't think they have to be literally accurate). Stevage (talk) 04:58, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Changed my mind from my opinion above, I want to put Graticule Unlocked as my top preference. It has completed terminology, the name precisely matches the meaning, it sounds good, and it sounds satisfying to achieve.

I've noted that people don't like Mother Nature's Conqueror, so I'd like to add to the above options the other choice I had in mind: Mother Nature's Champion.

BarbaraTables (talk) 12:34, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I've voiced my opinion on Discord, but will reiterate here: I don't personally have a problem with the original names because I don't find them offensive, but understand other people's arguments and concerns, particularly for bitch since it's commonly used as an insult. Therefore, I do not oppose renaming, especially if the names turn potential hashers away or make them hesitant to introduce others. My objection that most of the suggestions did not have terminology for "virgin graticule" and "deflowering" has been addressed for several of the proposed names. I like that the community is so energetic and friendly about this issue, no talk page has seen this much activity in a long time. Perhaps we should move over the comments by people who have replied on Discord, but not here --π π π (talk) 14:21, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Added comments from Discord that have not been put here by the people themselves. --KerrMcF (talk) 00:00, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

I very much support the renaming of all these achievements. I put some of my concerns at the bottom of this expedition report a couple of years ago. I also would like to point out that many people claiming achievements in the past does not mean they had no issues with them, I claimed the "virgin" achievement despite voicing my concerns. After looking at the options, I prefer "unlocking" graticules, "humbled by mother nature", and "one with mother nature". Johnwrw (talk) 22:52, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

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