Talk:Boats are for sissies! achievement

This achievement was proposed in the past, but has been rejected, because of the overlap with water/underwater geohashes, and other comments left unaddressed. Please read the discussion page for more details.

As per the page proposed achievements: If an achievement has strong opposition and the reasons for opposition are not resolved through discussion, then the proposed achievements category is replaced with the rejected achievements category, the reason explained succinctly on the page, and the page otherwise marked to make sure it isn't confused with an achievements page.

Why is this on a page by itself with no expedition or user? You don't need to pre-create a gratuitous ribbon, just put it straight on the pages you want it on. It doesn't need a page, because it doesn't have requirements. Is this intended as a proposal for a new achievement? -Robyn 16:06, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm. I didn't mean it to be gratuitous, it's just that no one has done it/claimed it yet. I'll change the template to use template:ribbon, instead of template:gratuitous ribbon. -- Jevanyn 18:04, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

As it's a proposal for a new achievement, it should stay in the proposed achievements category and not get its own until it's been discussed at least a little bit. I think a swimming to the geohash achievement is a good idea, but it's not a complete achievement yet. For example, I think swimming with a life jacket on is weird, but being accompanied by someone in a spotter boat would be a good idea in many places. Swimming in a wetsuit is necessary to not die of hypothermia in cold climates, and should be allowed in warm ones, even though that also lends flotation.

Can I claim it for my WOW expeditions? (I think I can, but I don't think I should be able to.) --starbird 02:54, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Relet, why did you "undo" my comment? I said, as the history shows: Yeah, you'd better specify the physical state of the water! And is wading acceptable? For that matter, everyone who gets this will almost certainly also get the underwater geohash, so do we need this as well as that one and the WoW? -Robyn 04:04, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Not intentionally. Was there an editing conflict? -- relet 20:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

The water geohash achievement already has a mode of transportation parameter. I don't think that not using a boat justifies a non-gratuitous achievement. Especially not if the achievement allows using a boat and swimming the last ten meters to the hash. -- relet 08:02, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Ok, 10m is pretty short. 100m? How about, if you take a boat to the geohash, you have to swim to shore, or swim out to a boat that's at the hash already. If it's less than 100m from land, you're not allowed a boat at all. -- Jevanyn 13:53, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

But boats are for sissies. The requirements are contradicting the spirit of the achievement. If you can't swim 1 km to a hashpoint, don't take the ribbon. I think it's a neat idea, but doesn't deserve its own achievement (yet). Nobody's ever even claimed an underwater geohash, and that achievement is easier to get. --ilpadre 14:20, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

Also, if you can swim, you should also be able to dive for a few metres and make it an underwater geohash. So the underwater hash covers that pretty well, if someone seriously thinks the water hash isn't enough for him or her. --Ekorren 21:38, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

I think we should consider the risks associated with this. Of course the usual disclaimer applies, but I don't think we should encourage swimming long distances in unknown waters. DNO --The ru 10:29, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Oppose. for lack of actual swimming/underwater expeditions. -- relet 20:59, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

No need to apologize. I oppose it too, as is, because it overlaps completely with WoW, and contradicts itself as Ekorren pointed out. -Robyn 07:25, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Support. I don't see how it overlaps with WoW, at least not in spirit. It's for swimming there. We have an award for riding, why not swimming? I also think that just because it hasn't been attempted doesn't mean there shouldn't be an achievement, I think that's a reason to make it one, as it encourages people to try to do awesome things. It needs work, I guess, but I like it. -- UnwiseOwl 08:08, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

DNO. I think that it should specifically exclude the use of any water vehicles, except by others nearby for safety/spotting purposes. I see this being the water equivalent of the walk geohash. It seems to me that the WOW achievement is primarily for frozen ponds and the like, while this is specifically for swimming. We DO have an underwater hash now, and though a person who swims should be able to easily get the underwater, not all underwater would qualify for this. I think it might be better to wait until someone actually tries to do this before we actually make it an achievement, though. --aperfectring 13:04, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

If it is to be a swimming geohash, the wording needs to be changed to require the water to be liquid, or to require the means of transportation to be swimming, being clear about whether fins, water wings, kickboards or wetsuit is allowed. As it is, any WoW geohash qualifies for this. If it is to be a walk geohash equivalent then how much has to be covered by swimming? Swimming is already explicitly allowed as part of the transportation to a walk destination. -Robyn 08:44, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

My proposal: Reach the water geohash completely under your own propulsion, and without any sort of boat. One must not use any artificial propulsion or boat at all while traversing water. The water must be liquid. This excludes any rivers or streams one must cross in order to reach the body of water the geohash is within. Fins, water wings, and wet or dry suits are allowed. Kickboards are up for discussion. You are allowed to use other propulsion while on land, bridges, and ferries. If you must cross a bridge or ferry over the body of water the geohash lies in, you must cross completely to the other side, and start the swim from that side. The use of a spotting boat and appropriate safety gear is very strongly recommended. Even with my own wording, I am at DNO and a little leaning towards oppose, but I feel this wording clears up some people's concerns. --aperfectring 12:03, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

FWIW, this is much closer to what I meant by this achievement, as well as what I intended to do this summer. (Abstain) -- Jevanyn 13:51, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Edit the proposed achievement page so people can consider what you meant. That's the purpose of this process. You'd probably have been disappointed if half the people taking the award did it with snowmobiles. I'm guessing you don't spent enough time around frozen water to have realized the giant loophole in the "without a boat" wording. The wiki caught it for you, and it will be a better achievement for the scrutiny. -Robyn 17:09, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Do Not Oppose

I did it, not sure whether it warrants a seperate ribbon though. --Kieran 23:18, 5 September 2009 (UTC)