Talk:Speed racer achievement

Think we can add a bit about making sure the road is clear before trying this? If there is a geohash on a road, there's always the possibility that someone is going to be standing in the middle of the road with a GPS just around that blind curve up ahead....

Copyright issues?

The Acheivement page has an ongoing discussion as to whether to stick figure images should be favored. Since this award uses a copyrighted image, I clipped the XKCD Mario Kart comic for a race car, as a suggested alternate. I'm not taking sides, just doing the work. -- Jevanyn 20:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Greatest Speed Racers

Has anyone attempted the slowest or fastest Speed Racer? The Speed Racer for 2009-03-21 45 -108 is at a stop sign, so the maximum legal speed is a complete stop... David Souther 15:59, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

No, a stop sign is no maximum speed limit. You are allowed to drive the same speed as everywhere else, as long as you manage to stop your car once. -- relet 17:02, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

A stop sign does not change the speed limit, but the maximum legal and safe speed around a stop sign changes as a function of your distance from the stop sign. Both of the following assume the only way to reach the hashpoint is by approaching, stopping at and then leaving the stop sign. (there are no usable cross-roads for instance)

• For points before the sign, the maximum safe speed is the maximum speed you can go while still being able to safely stop at the sign.
• For points after the sign, the maximum safe speed is the fastest you can go without accellerating uncontrollably or making it a police hash (due to eg: Hoon Driving). (depends alot on the area I would think, amount of pedestrians, that sort of thing.)

mykaDragonBlue [- i have no sig -] 11:05, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I disagree with relet, and partially agree with MykaDragonBlue. The stop sign establishes a speed limit that varies according to outside factors: When you reach here the maximum legal speed instantly drops to zero, then once you reach that speed limit it instantly goes back up again. Much like a traffic light establishes a "zone of speed limit zero" over a certain area during the time it is red. The real question, therefore, is *where* exactly the point was on the intersection. If it was next to the stop sign (within the area in which, if you didn't stop there, you would be violating the stop sign) huzzah. If it was after that area even by a millimeter, you have to accelerate to the previous speed limit before reaching it (or decelerate from said speed limit before crossing the stop sign) in order to get the award. Furthermore, is the point in your lane? How certain are you of this? If it was in the opposite direction lane, you have to pass over it at the maximum allowable speed there. If it is in the center of the intersection, is there no direction from which you could have approached that would allow you to pass over the point without having to stop? Could you have come from the opposite direction or made a turn?

In other words, in my opinion getting a zero-kph speed racer award is possible, but it has an *extremely* rigorous standard of proof compared to other ones.

Yerushalmi 11:07, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I added a speed section to the Speed Racer Ribbon Template so we can figure out how to compare speed racers. David Souther 22:28, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

German Autobahn

There's a potential problem with the wording "at the maximum (legal) speed" on the Autobahn in Germany - unless a stretch of road is marked specifically as having a certain speed limit, there is only a "recommended (maximum) speed" of 130 km/h, but no legal speed limit. While some cars may go easily to 250 km/h (an experience I don't care to repeat), that is still not "the maximum legal speed", since there is none. So, what speed is acceptable for the achievement in this case? I hope it doesn't have to be in excess of R 17 ;-) --dawidi 12:55, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

If there is no speed limit, then you're in the wrong place to gain this achievement. -- relet 13:16, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

There aren't many places on the earth where there is now speed limit, surely. I'm all for leaving this award as it was. -- UnwiseOwl 10:47, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I think the point of the achievement was to go "really fast" through the hashpoint - "at the maximum (legal) speed" was included to not encourage speeding and to avoid people taking risks just to be faster than the previous record holder. Therefore, when there's no enforced speed limit (which I'm sure the creators of the achievement didn't think of), falling back to the advisory speed (or within measurement accuracy of it) should be acceptable. Just "driving a vehicle through the hashpoint" certainly is too vague. --dawidi 10:55, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

No, I think it shouldn't be winable there at all. Then again, I don't realy mind, I'll never get to go that fast being an Aussie. It's probably up to you europeans to work out.-- UnwiseOwl 10:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. The maximum legal speed in a no-legal-speed-limit road is c, which you unfortunately can't reach... so unless there are maximum reasonable speed laws like there are on many rural roads, I don't think you have this award. Yerushalmi 10:57, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

IMHO the maximum reasonable speed is 30, no matter what the signs say, sometimes lower. So, given that, you could get the achievement everywhere just by redefining "reasonable"? Not really, sorry. I totally agree to most other posters here that if there is no legal speed limit you can't win the achievement at that point. Ah, and a stop sign doesn't make the limit zero at that point, it just forces you to stop. At a zero limit you wouldn't be allowed to continue afterwards at all. Just like following a tractor with no chance to overtake doesn't set the speed limit to 25 although it forces you to go slow. I'm not the one that would defend the achievement as a whole but as it's already there, I think we should keep to the rules and not bend them to whatever is convenient. What's next? Claiming couch potato at a place where there is no house because if there is no house, it can't be the one of someone else? --Ekorren 11:40, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

OK... so after a lengthy and heated discussion (most of which wasn't my fault) on the topic in #geohashing, I'm un-claiming the Speed Racer ribbon for 2009-03-23 49 12 and replacing it by an error ribbon. I still don't think it's fair that we're not getting the achievement for this extremely well-documented expedition, while virtually all of the other hashers casually claiming this achievement fail to provide either proof of the limit, or proof of their speed, or both, or don't even bother telling what speed they were driving at. I wish we could just stick to Myka's Rule for justification of achievements :-/ --dawidi 15:46, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Awww, I would have thought the autobahn was a great place for a speedracer. I had fun reaching the maximum legal speed limit on a bicycle when it was 50 km/h. Put my vote the other way. Perhaps the achievement description could be changed to "at least 100 km/h but not more than the maximum legal speed limit." That opens it up to downhill skiers, bobsledders, and autobahn drivers without making everyone who rides a tricycle down their driveway a speedracer.

But I do like your error ribbon. I like to look at the unearned achievement ribbons as good things, like cookies not yet eaten, so you can eat them later. That's also why I keep making more cookies. :-) -Robyn 20:24, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure where to write this, but I'd say if there's any sort of controversy over speed limit (or lack thereof), then remove the 'maximum speed' requirement from the achievement. Leave two simple requirements; The coordinates have to be on a road and you have to drive over them. It seems against the spirit of the achievement that you should fail just because you hit traffic, or because there's a stop sign a few feet past the hash.
Of course, this definition might spawn a lengthy argument on what constitutes 'driving', or what sort of vehicle you need, as I've seen this achievement claimed by bicyclists. This would probably come down to local laws or conventions on what constitutes a vehicle and what doesn't. -Woodveil 22:18, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. After all, this achievement is called Speed Racer and not car driving or road location achievement. It's about the speedlimit and not about burning fuel, so the type of vehicle is basically of no concern. Also, it is much more of a challenge to do this without a car. And to do it according to the rules instead of just claiming it for driving at an arbitrary speed as many people seem to do. --Ekorren 22:35, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I never said people shouldn't still try to drive over the hash while going the speed limit. But being too strenuous with proof becomes dangerous, especially with solo hashers. I wouldn't want to be driving next to the guy who's trying to get a picture of a speed limit sign, then a picture of his GPS and speedometer while driving 65 miles per hour on the interstate. And you can't always pull over on the shoulder for a picture or drag someone else along to take the photos. Plus, this is the internet, so there's a level of trust I put into reading people's expedition reports. If the hash was on a road and they were in a car (with photo evidence), I have no reason to doubt that they also drove over the hash at the speed limit. This type of proof is not particularly strenuous and should probably not be applied to other achievements, but given safety concerns, it seems reasonable in this situation. -Woodveil 23:29, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree that no kind of proof is worth any kind of danger. But, apart from the fact that with a little bit of creativity a proof might still be possible (a tracklog would be a good but not the only idea), you are just changing the topic. The point here is that most self-declared winners don't even include the information what the speed limit actually was at that point (a simple "general speed limit on residential roads is 50 in my country and there was no different sign" would often suffice), some even state clearly that they did not reach the speed limit and still take the achievement. Taking a photo of a speed limit sign might not always be secure, but in most cases it is (most speed racer attempts were not on main roads). There are many occasions where it is not possible to actually reach the legal limit, be it because there is no limit, be it for bad road conditions, be it for slow traffic, giving way, whatever. And those are clearly fail by the rules and by what the community generally agreed to in several discussions. There will be a honorable mention for most of them, the rules for that are actually under discussion below. And, only partly related: An odd fail makes mostly a better story than a smooth success. --Ekorren 23:51, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay, gotcha. The page clearly says you have to be going to legal limit. So perhaps it should be rewritten to emphasize that point, and to require either photos or a written description of the speed limit (preferably both) in order for the ribbon to be claimed. And I think an Honorable Mention ribbon would help for geohashes that are on roads but that are not driven over at the speed limit. -Woodveil 00:24, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

My opinion is that although it is not strictly a speed limit, the legally advised speed of 130 km/hour (§ 1 Autobahn-Richtgeschwindigkeits-Verordnung) should count for the purposes of this award. Because if you go faster than that and are involved in an accident, the authorities will put part or all of the legal blame on you. So it is kind of a speed limit, though one that is only enforced in a very half-assed way when there already had been an accident. -- Trurl 07:25, 1 January 2013 (EST)

Honourable Mention

I suggest everyone that races through a hashpoint but is not able to reach the legal speed limit (either because there exists none, or because there's an intersection, or because ...) claim an honourable mention. -- lyx 20:14, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Btw, lots of Speed Racer Achievements have been claimed for racing a road somewhat *close* to a geohash. Another candidate for Honourable Mention, imho. -- lyx 20:24, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I totally agree to both kinds of honorable mentions. Would give a good chance to get those people out of the winners list who actually did not earn but just take it without being too rude. --Ekorren 22:14, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

After having looked through a few old expeditions to get a better impression for what people took the achievement, I would suggest to give the honorable mention the following definition:

Take the honorable mention if you fail to reach the legal speed limit because there either was no fixed limit, or other traffic regulations (like give way or stop signs) or bad road conditions forced you to slow down below the speed that would basically apply. If the obstacle is only temporary, like red traffic lights or a slow truck you can't overtake, try again.

About the hashes "near the road", on a second thought I think passing through the hash with a reasonable accuracy should be obligatory. Of course, one or two lanes to the left or right is within that accuracy. --Ekorren 13:32, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Satisfactory proof...

Satisfactory proof will probably consist of a photo of yourself near the location, preferably with your vehicle. - how lame is that? Next you'll say a screenshot of below-freezing temperatures on the weather forecast are acceptable proof of a snowman....

I'm not (only) bringing this up now because I'm upset about not getting this achievement myself (because I documented it too well), but because I simply didn't look into this achievement before. I see that most of the people who claim the achievement post, at best, a picture of the speedometer and their GPS (which may or may not be readable). Few bother to document (by photo or even just mentioning it in the text) the actual speed limit, and some omit proof (or mention) of their own speed. Is that really "satisfactory proof"? If someone doesn't have a camera (but for some reason can afford the car and gas), I'd accept a textual description as "proof", but it has to include the type of vehicle, the kind of speed limit (general limit for that type of road, or a specific posted limit at that spot?) and its value, the speed the geohasher was driving at (if it differs for whatever reason) and a description of the road and traffic conditions. If a camera is available, photograph the speed limit sign (where available), and take a picture (have it taken by a passenger) of the road at the coordinates while driving. And/or give us a track log with timestamps. A video of the drive (like we did) would be nice, but I can accept that not everyone has the equipment for it. In short: I don't care if you drove 5% below the posted limit, but show a little more effort of documentation, guys! That's what achievements are about, after all - encouraging you to do something you might not normally do, in the hope that it will produce material for an interesting expedition report! --dawidi 23:56, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

The "lame" proof was to discourage people from juggling a GPS, camera and steering wheel while in command of a motor vehicle. It's infinitely better to have a hundred people with unearned speedracer ribbons than one injured person who lost control of a vehicle trying to earn it properly. I understand your frustration, and don't think that people don't subjectively look at these things and think about who unquestionably got the achievement versus who likes to put pretty ribbons on their pages. As stringent as one CAN make the written proof requirements, most people (including you) don't read them before taking the achievement anyway. That you came up with more stringent requirements for yourself separates you from the typical person who comes up with less, or none at all. Don't sully your reputation for good geohashing with one for ranting.

Tangentially related, I keep starting to write requirements for the Pi Geohash, seeing as there is already a ribbon, but every time I do I picture someone who bought a Twinkie on the way to the geohash using it to claim picnic and pi both at once, diminishing the remarkable work of the people who baked custom pies (did you see the beautiful one with a pi on it?) or cakes. But unless people submit their expeditions to a neutral adjudication committee who give out the awards, we're always going to have various levels of achievement. I try to hold myself to the highest standards while not taking it too seriously. I'm hoping the Gratuitous Ribbon will help here, too. -Robyn 00:14, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Passengers eligible?

Are passengers eligible for this award, provided that they're in a car fulfilling all other requirements? Or is only the driver able to claim the achievement? -- Haberdasher 02:29, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Everyone has done it that way up to now, that everyone in or on the vehicle can claim the achievement provided the vehicle goes with the maximum allowed speed of the respective part of infrastructure it's going on.

I think the achievement is very poorly worded, actually. Like most of the early achievements it was more an idea quickly written down than a set of sports rules but never got elaborated - and since what was written down didn't really work for the spirit of the achievement as people understood it most people didn't care about the exact wording. This includes as well the difference between "driving through" and "going through" as the restriction on cars and roads which probably wasn't intended but, being caught in a car-centric thought world, the one who wrote down the idea just forgot that it could be done otherwise as well. And that it even might be much more of a challenge and fun to achieve this without a car. --Ekorren 06:58, 19 March 2012 (EDT)