Difference between revisions of "Berlin, Germany"

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   | se = [[Cottbus, Germany|Cottbus]]
 
   | se = [[Cottbus, Germany|Cottbus]]
 
}}
 
}}
[[Image:5213_refusenik-ldn.jpg|400px]]
 
  
The Berlin [[graticule]] is at latitude 52, longitude 13. It completely encloses the cities of Berlin and Potsdam. It extends as far as Zehdenick and Joachimsthal to the north,  Luckenwalde to the south, Storkow and Falkenberg to the east and Potsdam to the west. It also contains a part of the Spreewald and some nice lakes, and a lot of arable land, particularly in Brandenburg.
+
[[file:5213 refusenik-ldn.jpg|400px|frame|center]]
 +
 
 +
The Berlin [[graticule]] is at latitude 52, longitude 13.
 +
 
 +
* [https://geohashing.info/52,13 Today's location]
 +
* [https://yr.no/en/content/2-2950159/meteogram.svg 48 hour meteogram (weather forecast)]<!--nb/innhold,sme/sisdoallu,nn/innhald-->
 +
 
 +
It completely encloses Berlin and most of Potsdam. It extends as far as Zehdenick and Joachimsthal to the north,  Luckenwalde to the south, Storkow and Falkenberg to the east and Potsdam to the west. It also contains a part of the Spreewald and some nice lakes, and a lot of arable land, particularly in Brandenburg.
 +
 
 +
Geohashing has a long and great history in this graticule. During the first years of Geohashing a lot of amazing expeditions (2008: 25; 2009: 50; 2010: 28) and a number of smaller and bigger meetups took place. Between 2011 and 2018 37 sucessful and 8 unsucessful (but still meritous) expeditions were done within eight years. Finally there was no geohash at all visited in the Berlin graticule in 2018 9 and 2020. But this was not the end of geohashing in Berlin. Thanks to new enthusiasts there were 13 expeditions done during the years 2021-2023 and already four in January and February 2024. Revitalizing the Berlin Geohashing scene seems to be a real opportunity now.
 +
 
 +
The facebook group which once existed does not seem to exist any more. At the moment the best option for local and visiting geohashers seems to be to contact recently active geohashers directely. As soon as other networks will be set up it will be announced here.
  
 
== Upcoming Locations==
 
== Upcoming Locations==
 
 
'''New hashes are announced at 15:30 local time on the previous day, and on Friday for Saturday, Sunday and Monday.'''
 
'''New hashes are announced at 15:30 local time on the previous day, and on Friday for Saturday, Sunday and Monday.'''
  
<div style='font-size:90%; margin:2px; padding: 2px; border: 1px solid #3c3; background: #dfd;'>
+
*
  
* [http://www.yr.no/place/Germany/Berlin/Berlin/meteogram.png 48 hour meteogram (weather forecast)]
+
''If you actually plan to visit a hash, please create the appropriate wiki page. Others[tm] might be more likely to join in. Subscribe to the [{{canonicalurl:Berlin, Germany|feed=rss&action=history}} RSS] or [{{canonicalurl:Berlin, Germany|feed=atom&action=history}} ATOM] feeds to be notified of any changes made to this page.''
* [http://activegeohasher.com/graticule/52/13 all the current hashes on activegeohasher.com]
 
* [[2010-05-06 52 13|Friday, 6th May]] - Behind a block of flats in Friedrichsfelde just outside the ring-bahn.
 
</div>
 
 
 
''If you actually plan to visit a hash, please create the appropriate wiki page. Others[tm] might be more likely to join in. Subscribe to the [http://wiki.xkcd.com/wgh/index.php?title=Berlin%2C_Germany&feed=rss&action=history RSS] or [http://wiki.xkcd.com/wgh/index.php?title=Berlin%2C_Germany&feed=atom&action=history ATOM] feeds to be notified of any changes made to this page.''
 
  
 
== Local Geohashers ==
 
== Local Geohashers ==
  
{|
+
{| width="100%" |
! Name !! Base* !! Recent activity !! Active? !! GPS? !! Bike? !! Car?
+
! Name !! Base* !! Recent activity !! Active? !! GPS? !! Bike? !! Car? !! Boat?
 
|-
 
|-
| [[User:HiroProtagonist|Hiro Protagonist]] || Dahlem/Teltow || [[Special:Contributions/HiroProtagonist|recent activity]] || Active - Regular || No || Yes || No
+
| [[User:coyotebush|coyotebush]] || Friedrichshain || [[Special:Contributions/coyotebush|recent activity]] || Active || Phone || Yes || No || No
 
|-
 
|-
| [[User:davidc|davidc]] || Mitte || [[Special:Contributions/davidc|recent activity]] || Active - Regular || Yes || Yes || No
+
| [[User:lyx|lyx]] || [[Neubrandenburg, Germany|53, 13]] || [[Special:Contributions/lyx|recent activity]] || Active - Occasional || Phone || Yes || No || [[:File:200907165313-P1040260.JPG|Maybe]]
 
|-
 
|-
| [[User:Phoenix|Phoenix]] || Spandau || [[Special:Contributions/Phoenix|recent activity]] || Active - Occasional || Yes || Yes || Yes
+
| [[User:Jan|Jan]] || Charlottenburg || [[Special:Contributions/Jan|recent activity]] || Active || Phone || Yes || No || No
 
|-
 
|-
| [[User:Hessophanes|Hessophanes]] || Charlottenburg  || [[Special:Contributions/Hessophanes|recent activity]] || Active - Occasional || Yes || Yes || Yes
+
| [[User:Rixx|rixx]] || Lehnitz || [[Special:Contributions/rixx|recent activity]] || Active || Phone || Yes || No || No
 
|-
 
|-
| [[User:Pari|pari]] || ? || [[Special:Contributions/pari|recent activity]] || Active - Occasional || Yes || Yes || No
+
| [[User:CamelCase|CamelCase]] || EuropaCity || [[Special:Contributions/CamelCase|recent activity]] || Active || Phone || No || No || No
 
|-
 
|-
| [[User:lyx|lyx]] || Moabit || [[Special:Contributions/lyx|recent activity]] || Active - Occasional || Yes || Yes || No
+
| [[User:Jens1964|Jens1964]] || Charlottenburg || [[Special:Contributions/Jens1964|recent activity]] || Active || Phone || No || No || No
 
|-
 
|-
| [[User:Trurl|Trurl]] || ? || [[Special:Contributions/Trurl|recent activity]] || Active || ? || ? || ?
+
| [[User:Fenmar|Fenmar]] || Grunewald || [[Special:Contributions/Fenmar|recent activity]] || Active - Occasional || Yes || Yes || No || No
 
|-
 
|-
| [[User:Jerrome|Jerrome]] || - || [[Special:Contributions/Jerrome|recent activity]] || Active || Yes || Yes || Motorbike
+
| <strike>[[User:HiroProtagonist|Hiro Protagonist]]</strike> || [[Toronto, Ontario|43, -79]] till June 11 || [[Special:Contributions/HiroProtagonist|recent activity]] || Inactive || No || Yes || No
 
|-
 
|-
| [[User:JUB|JUB]] || ? || [[Special:Contributions/JUB|recent activity]] || Active || ? || ? || ?
+
| [[User:davidc|davidc]] || Neukoelln || [[Special:Contributions/davidc|recent activity]] || Inactive || Yes || No || No
 
|-
 
|-
| [[User:relet|relet]] || [[60,10]] || [[Special:Contributions/relet|recent activity]] || Occasional || Yes || No || On demand
+
| [[User:Kattapa|Kattapa]] || Neukoelln || [[Special:Contributions/Kattapa|recent activity]] || Inactive || No || Yes || No
 +
|-
 +
| [[User:Phoenix|Phoenix]] || Spandau || [[Special:Contributions/Phoenix|recent activity]] || Inactive || Yes || Yes || Yes
 +
|-
 +
| [[User:Hessophanes|Hessophanes]] || Charlottenburg  || [[Special:Contributions/Hessophanes|recent activity]] || Inactive || Yes || Yes || Yes
 +
|-
 +
| [[User:Pari|pari]] || ? || [[Special:Contributions/pari|recent activity]] || Inactive || Yes || Yes || No
 +
|-
 +
| [[User:Plypkie|plypkie]] || Friedrichshain || [[Special:Contributions/plypkie|recent activity]] || Inactive || Yes || Yes || No || No
 +
|-
 +
| [[User:Amuzulo|Amuzulo]] || Mitte || [[Special:Contributions/Amuzulo|recent activity]] || Inactive || Yes || No || No || No
 +
|-
 +
| [[User:Trurl|Trurl]] || Neukölln || [[Special:Contributions/Trurl|recent activity]] || Inactive || Yes || Yes || Yes || No
 +
|-
 +
| [[User:Jerrome|Jerrome]] || - || [[Special:Contributions/Jerrome|recent activity]] || Inactive || Yes || Yes || Motorbike
 +
|-
 +
| [[User:JUB|JUB]] || ? || [[Special:Contributions/JUB|recent activity]] || Inactive || ? || ? || ?
 +
|-
 +
| [[User:relet|relet]] || [[60,10]] || [[Special:Contributions/relet|recent activity]] || Inactive || Yes || No || On demand
 
|-
 
|-
 
| [[User:Sneak|Sneak]] || ? || [[Special:Contributions/Sneak|recent activity]] || Inactive || ? || ? || ?
 
| [[User:Sneak|Sneak]] || ? || [[Special:Contributions/Sneak|recent activity]] || Inactive || ? || ? || ?
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| [[User:Lars|Lars]] || ? || [[Special:Contributions/Lars|recent activity]] || Inactive || ? || ? || ?
 
| [[User:Lars|Lars]] || ? || [[Special:Contributions/Lars|recent activity]] || Inactive || ? || ? || ?
 
|-
 
|-
| [[User:Syphonophorae|Syphonophorae]] || Friedrichshain || [[Special:Contributions/Syphonophorae|recent activity]] || Active || Not yet || Yes || No
+
| [[User:Syphonophorae|Syphonophorae]] || Friedrichshain || [[Special:Contributions/Syphonophorae|recent activity]] || Inactive || Not yet || Yes || No
 
|-
 
|-
 +
| [[User:JonWon|JonWon]] || Biesdorf || [[Special:Contributions/JonWon|recent activity]] || Inactive || Yes || Yes || Moped || on-demand-construction
 
|}
 
|}
  
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== Visiting Geohashers ==
 
== Visiting Geohashers ==
-
+
 
 +
* Mampfred has been in the area and was going for [[2012-08-11 52 13]]. - [[User:Mampfred|Mampfred]] 11:55, 10 August 2012 (EDT)
  
 
== Probabilities ==
 
== Probabilities ==
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</pre>
 
</pre>
  
According to [[Public transport probability]], using OpenStreetMap data, there is a 27.58% chance of the hash landing within 2km of a train station, or 47.45% chance of it landing within 2km of a train or bus stop.
+
According to Kripakkos Graticule Partitioner [https://kripakko.neocities.org/geohash_regions] just 11.8 % of the area of this graticule are within the Federal State of Berlin while 88.2 % belong to 10 different counties (Landkreise) of the Federal State of Brandenburg plus the capital of Brandenburg, Potsdam.
 
 
Increasing the search to a 5km radius, there's a 68.63% chance of it landing within 5km of a train station, or 81.61% chance of it landing within 5km of a train or bus stop.
 
  
Basically, this means that when being out there, you should go and map those thousands of missing bus stops.
+
According to [[Public transport probability]], using OpenStreetMap data, there is a 27.58% chance of the hash landing within 2km of a train station, or 47.45% chance of it landing within 2km of a train or bus stop.Increasing the search to a 5km radius, there's a 68.63% chance of it landing within 5km of a train station, or 81.61% chance of it landing within 5km of a train or bus stop. Basically, this means that when being out there, you should go and map those thousands of missing bus stops.
 +
According to [[Public transport probability]], using OpenStreetMap data, there is a 27.58% chance of the hash landing within 2km of a train station, or 47.45% chance of it landing within 2km of a train or bus stop. Increasing the search to a 5km radius, there's a 68.63% chance of it landing within 5km of a train station, or 81.61% chance of it landing within 5km of a train or bus stop. Basically, this means that when being out there, you should go and map those thousands of missing bus stops.
  
 
== Graticule Ribbons ==
 
== Graticule Ribbons ==
Line 101: Line 124:
 
| date = 2009-09-01
 
| date = 2009-09-01
 
| achievement = We're Better Than You achievement
 
| achievement = We're Better Than You achievement
| description = finally beating Mannheim in the [[:2009_Most_active_graticules_09_02#Expeditions|Most active graticules]] after the
+
| description = finally beating Mannheim in the [[:2009_Most_active_graticules#Expeditions|Most active graticules]] after the
 
| name = This graticule
 
| name = This graticule
 
| image = 2009-09-01_52_13_IMG_0223.JPG  
 
| image = 2009-09-01_52_13_IMG_0223.JPG  
 
}}  
 
}}  
  
{{Largest Geohash | latitude = 52 | longitude = 13 | date = 2009-08-29 | number = 12 | graticule = Berlin, Germany | image = 2009-08_29_52_13_IMG_1442.JPG}}
+
{{Largest geohash | latitude = 52 | longitude = 13 | date = 2009-08-29 | number = 12 | graticule = Berlin, Germany | image = 2009-08_29_52_13_IMG_1442.JPG}}
  
 
{{most active graticule
 
{{most active graticule
Line 115: Line 138:
 
     | count = 6
 
     | count = 6
 
}}  
 
}}  
{{Virgin graticule | latitude = 52 | longitude = 13 | date = 2008-06-01 | name = Eik and [[User:Thilo|Thilo]] }}
+
{{Graticule unlocked | latitude = 52 | longitude = 13 | date = 2008-06-01 | name = Eik and [[User:Thilo|Thilo]] }}
  
 
== Past Meetups==
 
== Past Meetups==
''sorted by date of actual expedition, latest first''
+
''For all expeditions in this graticule, see [[Berlin, Germany/Expeditions]].''
* [[2010-04-24 52 13|April 24th 2010]] - Four on a midnight-circus-no batteries-animal coffin potato honourable mention-geohash
+
{{:Berlin, Germany/Expeditions}}
* [[2010-04-19 52 13|April 19th 2010]] - [[User:HiroProtagonist|Hiro]] and [[User:Hessophanes|Hessophanes]] fail to reach the hash but find many crane components instead.
 
* [[2010-03-24 52 13|March 24th 2010]] - [[User:syphonophorae|syphonophorae]] visits the spot in the area of allotments.
 
* [[2010-03-20 52 13|March 20th 2010]] - [[User:davidc|davidc]] visits the a graveyard on a flightpath in Reineckendorf.
 
* [[2010-03-14 52 13|March 14th 2010]] - [[User:davidc|davidc]] celebrates a snowy Pi-day.
 
* [[2010-03-04 52 13|March 4th 2010]] - [[User:Phoenix|Phoenix]] and [[User:relet|relet]] visit a garden colony in Potsdam, missing [[User:Benpicco|Benpicco]].
 
* [[2010-02-16 52 13|February 16th 2010]] - [[User:relet|relet]], [[User:JUB|Jub]] and JP visit a hash and hardly make it back home
 
* [[2010-02-09 52 13|February 9th 2010]] - [[User:HiroProtagonist|Hiro]], [[User:JUB|Jub]] and Kolja discover a time anomaly at the Berlin-Brandenburg border
 
* [[2010-02-03 52 13|February 3rd 2010]] - [[User:HiroProtagonist|Hiro]] and two drag-alongs rush to reach the hash in Stahnsdorf just before midnight
 
* [[2010-01-20 52 13|January 20th 2010]] - [[User:HiroProtagonist|Hiro]], [[User:JUB|JUB]], [[User:Hessophanes|Hessophanes]] and [[User:relet|relet]] at the scene of a heinous murder.
 
* [[2010-01-12 52 13|January 12th 2010]] - [[User:Phoenix|Phoenix]], [[User:lyx|lyx]] and [[User:relet|relet]] build a snowman in Birkenwerder.
 
 
 
Many more expeditions can be seen in our past meetup lists for the years [[Berlin, Germany/2009|2009]] and [[Berlin, Germany/2008|2008]].
 
  
 
[[Category:Germany]]
 
[[Category:Germany]]
 
[[Category:Active graticules]]
 
[[Category:Active graticules]]
[[Category:Deflowered graticules]]
+
[[Category:Unlocked graticules]]

Latest revision as of 15:44, 29 November 2024

Güstrow Neubrandenburg Szczecin, Poland
Brandenburg Berlin Frankfurt (Oder)
Leipzig Dresden Cottbus

Today's location: geohashing.info google osm bing/os kml crox

5213 refusenik-ldn.jpg

The Berlin graticule is at latitude 52, longitude 13.

It completely encloses Berlin and most of Potsdam. It extends as far as Zehdenick and Joachimsthal to the north, Luckenwalde to the south, Storkow and Falkenberg to the east and Potsdam to the west. It also contains a part of the Spreewald and some nice lakes, and a lot of arable land, particularly in Brandenburg.

Geohashing has a long and great history in this graticule. During the first years of Geohashing a lot of amazing expeditions (2008: 25; 2009: 50; 2010: 28) and a number of smaller and bigger meetups took place. Between 2011 and 2018 37 sucessful and 8 unsucessful (but still meritous) expeditions were done within eight years. Finally there was no geohash at all visited in the Berlin graticule in 2018 9 and 2020. But this was not the end of geohashing in Berlin. Thanks to new enthusiasts there were 13 expeditions done during the years 2021-2023 and already four in January and February 2024. Revitalizing the Berlin Geohashing scene seems to be a real opportunity now.

The facebook group which once existed does not seem to exist any more. At the moment the best option for local and visiting geohashers seems to be to contact recently active geohashers directely. As soon as other networks will be set up it will be announced here.

Upcoming Locations

New hashes are announced at 15:30 local time on the previous day, and on Friday for Saturday, Sunday and Monday.

If you actually plan to visit a hash, please create the appropriate wiki page. Others[tm] might be more likely to join in. Subscribe to the RSS or ATOM feeds to be notified of any changes made to this page.

Local Geohashers

Name Base* Recent activity Active? GPS? Bike? Car? Boat?
coyotebush Friedrichshain recent activity Active Phone Yes No No
lyx 53, 13 recent activity Active - Occasional Phone Yes No Maybe
Jan Charlottenburg recent activity Active Phone Yes No No
rixx Lehnitz recent activity Active Phone Yes No No
CamelCase EuropaCity recent activity Active Phone No No No
Jens1964 Charlottenburg recent activity Active Phone No No No
Fenmar Grunewald recent activity Active - Occasional Yes Yes No No
Hiro Protagonist 43, -79 till June 11 recent activity Inactive No Yes No
davidc Neukoelln recent activity Inactive Yes No No
Kattapa Neukoelln recent activity Inactive No Yes No
Phoenix Spandau recent activity Inactive Yes Yes Yes
Hessophanes Charlottenburg recent activity Inactive Yes Yes Yes
pari ? recent activity Inactive Yes Yes No
plypkie Friedrichshain recent activity Inactive Yes Yes No No
Amuzulo Mitte recent activity Inactive Yes No No No
Trurl Neukölln recent activity Inactive Yes Yes Yes No
Jerrome - recent activity Inactive Yes Yes Motorbike
JUB ? recent activity Inactive ? ? ?
relet 60,10 recent activity Inactive Yes No On demand
Sneak ? recent activity Inactive ? ? ?
Thilo ? recent activity Inactive ? ? ?
Per ? recent activity Inactive ? ? ?
erlehmann ? (no userpage) Inactive ? ? ?
Lars ? recent activity Inactive ? ? ?
Syphonophorae Friedrichshain recent activity Inactive Not yet Yes No
JonWon Biesdorf recent activity Inactive Yes Yes Moped on-demand-construction

* Area you live in. Feel free to write "-" here if you'd rather not say!

Visiting Geohashers

Probabilities

According to Land usage, the chance for your hash to fall into one of the following areas is:

37.03%	Forests
29.14%	Fields
11.23%	Natural reserves
9.19%	Roads
6.84%	Settlements
3.84%	Highways
2.12%	Water
0.62%	Industrial

According to Kripakkos Graticule Partitioner [1] just 11.8 % of the area of this graticule are within the Federal State of Berlin while 88.2 % belong to 10 different counties (Landkreise) of the Federal State of Brandenburg plus the capital of Brandenburg, Potsdam.

According to Public transport probability, using OpenStreetMap data, there is a 27.58% chance of the hash landing within 2km of a train station, or 47.45% chance of it landing within 2km of a train or bus stop.Increasing the search to a 5km radius, there's a 68.63% chance of it landing within 5km of a train station, or 81.61% chance of it landing within 5km of a train or bus stop. Basically, this means that when being out there, you should go and map those thousands of missing bus stops. According to Public transport probability, using OpenStreetMap data, there is a 27.58% chance of the hash landing within 2km of a train station, or 47.45% chance of it landing within 2km of a train or bus stop. Increasing the search to a 5km radius, there's a 68.63% chance of it landing within 5km of a train station, or 81.61% chance of it landing within 5km of a train or bus stop. Basically, this means that when being out there, you should go and map those thousands of missing bus stops.

Graticule Ribbons

Mostactivegraticule.png
This graticule earned the We're Better Than You achievement
by finally beating Mannheim in the Most active graticules after the (52, 13) geohash on 2009-09-01.
2009-09-01 52 13 IMG 0223.JPG
ZombieMeet.PNG
Berlin, Germany earned the Largest geohash achievement
by congregating at the (52, 13) geohash on 2009-08-29 with a participation of 12 geohashers.
2009-08 29 52 13 IMG 1442.JPG
Mostactivegraticule.png
The Berlin, Germany graticule (52 13) earned the Mostly Active Graticule achievement
for the month of 2008-10 in the category coordinates reached by being the location of 6 successful expeditions.
Graticule unlocked.png
Eik and Thilo earned the Graticule Unlocked Achievement
by being the first to reach any hashpoint in the (52, 13) graticule, here, on 2008-06-01.

Past Meetups

For all expeditions in this graticule, see Berlin, Germany/Expeditions.
Arrow2.png 2024-12-08 - coyotebush, HeNeArXn - A sidewalk in Berlin-Tegel.
Arrow2.png 2024-12-02 - coyotebush - At the edge of a cemetery in Berlin-Britz.
Arrow2.png 2024-11-22 - coyotebush - Woods just outside the residential area of Kummersdorf-Gut.
Arrow2.png 2024-11-16 - coyotebush - Near the gate of a conference center in Neuendorf.
Arrow2.png 2024-10-31 - coyotebush - Backyard of a building in Berlin-Lichtenberg.
Arrow2.png 2024-10-30 - coyotebush - On a path in Königs Wusterhausen.
Arrow2.png 2024-07-17 - coyotebush - Inside the Neues Wolllagerhaus in Berlin-Marzahn.
Arrow2.png 2024-07-12 - π π π - on some grass between a house and the sidewalk in Potsdam, Brandenburg
Arrow2.png 2024-04-29 - HeNeArXn - In Potsdam, on a walkway next to remnants of the old city walls.
Arrow2.png 2024-04-24 - HeNeArXn - Berlin Kreuzberg, just in front of Reichenberger Straße 55
Arrow2.png 2024-04-07 - HeNeArXn - In a forest near (not in!) the Erpetal protected area in Hoppegarten
Arrow2.png 2024-04-02 - Jens1964 - In Berlin-Lichtenberg, Ortsteil Rummelsburg on the area of the (former) rai...
Arrow4.png 2024-04-01 - HeNeArXn - On an internal road in a commercial yard in the north of Berlin
Arrow2.png 2024-03-20 - Jens1964 - Just east of the town of Halbe, Landkreis Dahme-Spreewald, Brandenburg - in...
Arrow2.png 2024-02-12 - Fippe - located in a park in Berlin-Tegel.
Arrow2.png 2024-02-11 - HeNeArXn, Fippe - located in the eponymous park in Berlin-Tiergarten.
Arrow2.png 2024-01-29 - HeNeArXn - In a field north-west of Oranienburg.
Arrow2.png 2024-01-19 - HeNeArXn - On the canal edge opposite Westhafen harbor facilities in Berlin
Arrow2.png 2023-11-28 - HeNeArXn - In Barnim Nature Park near Berlin.
Arrow2.png 2023-06-11 - rixx - located in a forest in Hohen Neuendorf.
Arrow2.png 2023-04-22 - Jan - located just outside of the Restaurant Meteora in Berlin-Lichtenrade.
Arrow2.png 2022-05-08 - Fippe - located next to a cemetery in Berlin-Nikolassee.
Arrow2.png 2022-05-07 - Fippe, Jan - located on Glienicker Str in Seegefeld.
Arrow2.png 2022-03-26 - Rixx - Where the German wall used to be, in a forest on the Berlin Brandenburg bor...
Arrow2.png 2022-03-20 - Rixx - In a standard Brandenburg forest, but easy to reach from Oranienburg or Sac...